182: Jimmie Dale Gilmore
On Episode 182, I'm joined by acclaimed Lubbock singer-songwriter Jimmie Dale Gilmore of The Flatlanders. This Friday, July 09, The Panhandle trio is releasing their newest full-length album, Treasure of Love. During this conversation, we talk about recording Treasure of Love, growing up in Lubbock, the importance of radio, hearing Terry Allen for the first time, collaborating with Dave Alvin, the genius of Lloyd Maines, and the enduring impact of The Flatlanders.
Note: This is the first in a three-part installment of interviews with Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Joe Ely, and Butch Hancock of The Flatlanders.
This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol and The Blue Light Live.
Interview Transcript
Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.
Thomas Mooney 0:01
Everyone, welcome back to New slang. I hope everyone had a wonderful Fourth of July weekend. I am music journalist Thomas Mooney. And this week has been one of those weeks that I've had circled on the calendar for quite a while, and I'm so glad it all kind of got lined up and we were able to do it this Friday. That's July 9, the flatlanders are releasing treasure of love is their first studio record since 2019, hills and valleys, which I've kind of dubbed this flatlanders week for new slang. Since these past couple of weeks, I've been able to sit down and talk with Jimmy Dale Gilmore, Joey Lee, and Butch Hancock of the flatlanders. And as you'd expect by the title of this episode, we are kicking it off with this conversation with Jimmy Dale Gilmore. So I mentioned it plenty during this podcast, so y'all will probably already know this. But just in case you don't maybe this is your first time listening to new slang. I'm based in Lubbock and new slangs origins are as a Lubbock panhandle, West Texas based music blog. And much of those roots of what new slang is, was always about the music that came from this place, and conversations with artists who claim Lubbock as their home at one time or another. So in some sense, we're coming really full circle with these interviews with Jimmy Joe and Butch. I don't know if we'll ever be able to fully give the flatlanders their proper do, hopefully we're able to contextualize and get a better understanding of what the flatlanders did for Lubbock, I think to understand the flat ladders is to understand them as individual artists. And so when I talk about them in this sense of like, what they did, I'm really kind of talking about what they did solo, because there was those huge gaps between what the flatlanders were as as a group and as a band. So when I say they, I'm really just kind of talking about their individual solo careers, more so than the the band itself, because obviously as that first title that just kind of came back into circulation back in, I guess it was 1990. More a legend than a band. And that was very much the case. But at any rate, the flat letters, they came up at this like really pivotal time within Lubbock, and Texas music in general. They're really coming up in this transition period of sorts, where you're kind of seeing the phase out of the big dancehall bands, and the rise of the folk songwriter, the country songwriter. And there's plenty of artists who are right there in that same boat as Jimmy, Joe and Butch. But for Lubbock, they kind of set that standard, or the template going forward. And if you look at like any music scene, it's almost always when the artists start putting a value on writing their own material and telling the stories of their people. When a music scene starts to cultivate the importance of the songwriter, the storyteller, that's when I think things really changed for it. And you really see those ripples. Even today, you see those lasting effects on Lubbock. It's in part why folks really think of Lubbock as a songwriter town. There's really a reputation for that. It's why songwriters here they feel that pressure of being a songwriter. Now granted, that's probably a universal feeling by now, but I still think it's slightly different here in Lubbock. So up here in the panhandle, and Lubbock specifically, you have these big giant figures, a Buddy Holly, and of course, like just the touch of Bob wills, originally from Turkey, Texas, and then the one that maybe goes a little bit underrated is Woody Guthrie because he did live in pamper for a time. While he wasn't a household name by any stretch. During this time in Pampa, it was this very, very brief period. You do get that Dustbowl sense to what his music was doing. I say all that because like those kinds of figures, they're giant, they're iconic. They're big. And well, yes, they are talking about rural life. They're talking about West Texas, they're talking about the panhandle. They're almost too big. When it comes to Jimmy Joe, Butch, Terry Allen, that budge those songs and like what they're doing. It almost grounded in a very common place a very plain spoken kind of way, where it seemed achievable. It seemed obtainable. And that's just like a small little facet of what I think is so important about what they did for panhandle and Lubbock music. Now, I feel like I could go on forever about this, but one, you probably kind of get the point by now. And two, you really came to hear Jimmy talk more so than me. Today's presenting partner is our pals over at Desert door Texas Soto. 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Best thing you can do is the checkout desert door.com to find where desert door is locally. Again, that's desert door.com. If this is your first time listening to new slang, I would appreciate it if you hit that subscribe button. New slang is available virtually everywhere you can listen to podcasts. If you're listening on Apple podcast, be sure to leave one of those five star reviews, that does go a long way. Head on over to the merch store while you're at it. That would be new slang, podcast dot big cartel.com. Over there, we have T shirts and shot glasses and coffee mugs and a bunch of other stuff. Go check it out, go buy something. And yeah, we'll make this one really, really short. All the links that I just mentioned, they will be in the show notes as well. I do want to make a quick note, we did this interview on zoom. And for some reason at the very beginning here, it kind of jumbled up the audio, I went ahead and cut it off because it's just really me easing into the interview and mentioning treasure of love. And then we just kind of start talking about radio. So so I'm just going to cut myself off right there and just go into where Jimmy picks up on the radio. Which Yes, let's get on into the interview. Here is Jimmy Dale Gilmore.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 8:00
And we of course, in Lubbock, we had country station, top 40 top stuff and then we also had even you know television coming along Bitcoin music adoption of that.
Your Little Richard and Fats Domino and Lloyd Price. Or it was just radio music. I didn't I didn't like that to New Orleans music, it was just the songs that I liked a lot. So and that was just really a golden age of that before. Before, before FM came along, and before it got also locked down to play lists, you know that you kind of get to have some of everything. Without real real, like hardcore blues and hillbilly country stuff on the border stations late at night. And we can't hear that we can hear the real commercial Nashville stuff and, and, and LA and New York and you know, all that all the music being produced everywhere. We had it all to choose from. And it seemed like after that it people started. That was one thing that Joe and Butch and I all had in common was we'd like so many different kinds of music and we never did go, Oh, I'm a rock and roll guy and I can't stand that country stuff or vice versa. We knew lots of people that were like that they decide this is the camp I'm in so I'm not gonna like that other kind of music and I think that's just stupid.
Thomas Mooney 9:45
Right? Yeah, it's, it's one of those things where even if you are like a rock and roll guy, you guys being from Lubbock, Texas, being from Texas, you're going to be informed by country because it's inescapable in some respects and, you know, I think you always hear stories about your generation growing up in Lubbock. And going out and having these parties where you guys would like Park all around and have like the headlights all pointing in and tuning into the same radio station. Is there is was that kind of the way it was growing up? Or is that kind of more romanticized?
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 10:25
That sort of thing happened a few times, but it was definitely true that we hung out together and listen to the radio in the car. And, you know, and, and it. I don't remember doing it exactly in that way more than a handful of times. But it did happen. It wasn't like a nightly occurrence.
Thomas Mooney 10:46
Right? Yeah, I always it's this interesting. You know, I've lived in Lubbock the last 1015 years now. And I think it's it's very easy to romanticize this point. in Lubbock, as far as where you guys are coming from Terry Allen's the main brothers of the world where we kind of miss the it's hard to comprehend maybe the time span, where it's easy to just think all this stuff happened in 18 months or something. But there's these little holes these these years, this gaps that go in between these, these monumental albums, or these moments where you guys are playing a longer, or whatever the case. What what's it like, I guess, reflecting back and understanding that like, or like trying to maybe have other people understand that, that Lubbock was it was a spot where these great musicians were coming from, but it was also like that in a lot of other places, as well. And maybe that the time gap there was there's maybe some more, quote unquote, boring times between these really nice, great, you know, high points.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 12:05
Well, one thing about that was a little unusual about Lubbock. And I think, you know, in in till fairly recently, actually, Was that it? It was, it was dry, there was no incense, and so any, any bars or anything that, that, that had alcohol and all more or illegal, and so, we, Joe and I both played in a lot of those places, in, in, in, in early on, I didn't play in bands, but Joe did. And, and then what we both played also solo in some little listening places. And some of them were these bootleg joints that were so there was a there was an underground culture kind of in Lubbock that were and there was lots and lots and lots of good music, but not anything you would hear of anywhere on the radio. You know, it was a it was a rare thing. There were so many great musicians in Lubbock, but it was rare for any of them. You know, hardly anybody did what, what buddy did, or although, you know, there was a lot of people like, you know, Matt Davis and. And in Waylon Jennings, there was a lot of love of people that route became international stars. But there was tons of equally great music that never got heard anywhere. It was, and I kind of I pretty much suspect that that's still the case there. Now, you know, I, I haven't I haven't spent any time in Lubbock in a long time. So I don't really know that the young musicians hanging out there, you know, everything's changed. Everything's all different levels bigger, it's, there are bars.
But we
and I, I sort of think that, that and lock toys that's that's the case everywhere. There are lots of good musicians all over the place that get overlooked. And some of them end up Never been noticed. And you know, there is there flukes of of timing of luck. You know, one time I got I got to be friends with with Colonel Tom Parker before he died. And he was and he told me one time Do you know who I'm talking about right? Elvis's? Yes, sir. Arnold, you know, and he and he told me that one time that he said there There are three things that that you have to have to become genuinely successful in show business, you know, in music or any job, any property in any business. But, but in show business in particular, he said, you have to, he said, You got to have, first of all, you got to actually have some talent to, for it to keep going at all. And you have to have hard work. It doesn't happen without that happening, and luck. And he said, If any one of those three is missing, then it It won't happen. It will. And that's, and I'm, you know, by the age I am now I know, I know, so many people that were that had the talent and the hard work, but they didn't have the luck. And I've always kind of felt like like that, you know, it was a strange fluke that several people did break through and love some, hugely internationally, and then some kind of like us, you know, that we had good solid music careers without being giant stars. And then all kinds of other great musicians that are that better. They just went on into other jobs and stuff because it didn't, it just didn't pan out. Right. Yeah, I answered your question. Exactly. But that's the train of thought, you
Thomas Mooney 16:40
know, I think there's, there's very much something to that hole. When you see people talk about, especially like, in to give the example of like, when people went awards for anything, you know, they never, ever kind of think, just the serendipity of luck. Because like, I think that a lot of times like it is it is luck, where you got to be in the right place at the right time sometimes and and I think what you can do that with with not just the, the the music industry, but but a lot of things in life is contributed to just the timing of luck every once in a while. But you mentioned how like, you know, there's art artists that that come out of a place and they become globally known. They become known past their region. And then there's, of course, always this underbelly of of talent that just never kind of gets recognized other than just being from where they're from. I think that still happens here in Lubbock. And I think that it probably happens in most places. But what's interesting about Lubbock, and maybe this is just because, again, coming back to kind of being here for the last 15 years or so. And that's the I wonder how much of Lubbock now is like getting notoriety because of luck of the past. As far as like, the if we just buy into this hole. Well, there's something in the water kind of thing. where, like, people just kind of if you mentioned you're from Lubbock, you're loving musician. You feel like maybe there's a little bit of that cut from the same fabric of of these guys like y'all from from the past. I wonder if there's a little bit of that happening in today's world?
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 18:30
I'm sure it's bound to be that. That's part of, you know, the rusty old. Nothing seems like success. that's been true forever.
Thomas Mooney 18:45
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, I 100% agree on that one. Something that's that's maybe I find really interesting is, is when an artist realizes like the first time like, they can do songs, they can write songs, and it doesn't necessarily have to be where you're just playing someone else's songs. Do you? Do you remember, like the first time like you kind of realize or recognize that some of your peers were writing original music and that, you know, that's something that you could dive into as well.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 19:21
Yes, I know exactly. I know when it happened. I was. I was at Monterey High School. And I was Terry Allen was who I knew just a little bit around and he was older than me two or three years older than me. And so I didn't we weren't real close friends or anything later on. We became very close friends. But we It was a high school like a carnival at Monterey. It's either a I can't remember Halloween or something. I don't remember for sure. But I remember going in this one room and there's a guy over in the corner plan. Piano plan his own songs, it was Terry. And it was just wonderful. It just knocked me out. And, and it was I was already playing guitar and, you know, little learning to play and in doing a little bit of singing, but not I wasn't a public performer at all this was us in high school and, and he and but that I think I had always believed that I was I kind of planned on being a songwriter someday I think that was always a sort of built into me because my, my dad and I had this shared love of that, that early music that I was talking about, my dad was a guitar player. And, and so, but this is the this, that was the first time I heard up person I knew a real live person play a song they had written. And he played several songs, I could remember little snippets of just a couple of them, but they played and I and it that was what opened my mind. I said a lot of times looking back into that, I kind of think that my belief was I want to be a songwriter, but to be a songwriter, you'd have to be old and grown up and have had a lot of experiences and stuff like that. And then there was Terry, right, blend these really great songs and, and just been so interesting. So it was it is strangely, you know, my, my history has a very deep connection with Terry Allen from way before. And then later on, after he moved out to California. And, you know, went to art school and all that stuff was when I actually got to know him, I was out there with, with some friends and Terry and I've got to be real close friends. Even then, though, I still, you know, I was it still that I was younger than him and everything. And I regarded him as, like a elder statesman or something, even though he was probably 23 I, but that was a that was a very specific thing. And then later on, of course, you know, Butch and I had already been friends long before that. But Butch and I both became musicians. Without the other one knowing it was very strange. We were when we both found out that, that we both played and liked a lot of the same music we already were, you know, adapt enough to, to start sitting around and playing together. And I but but real early on, started coming up with such quality songs. You know, that was that was sort of the, the bar was raised. For for, for what can be done with songs. There were two or three people for me the Terry was one Butch was one owl straily was one that, that were just, you know, sort of in my age group, which is which is a couple months younger than me but out both Owl and terrier are, you know, several years older. But there were these immensely talented, great musicians like full, full long, great songwriters. And of course, they were unknown at the time. But But anyway, there there was so there was there was actually a specific incident where I was inspired to become a songwriter.
Thomas Mooney 23:58
Yeah, that's, that's amazing. Terry. I've, I've had the I've been able to talk with him a couple of times, about his records and it's always one of those. It's It's weird, because it's like, you're talking with Terry Allen now, and trying to understand Terry Allen, the the 20 year old the 25 year old and the 35 year old and not view him as like, you know, the this smart, wise, aged old man who, you know, you you think of him as like, you know, kind of one of these heroes and trying to figure out him as like the 20 year old kid, you know,
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 24:41
it's he was already even back then back in high school. He was the guy that was very well liked and charismatic kind of person you know, he was he was always kind of any always really individualistic sort of person but, but then hit you know the all the whole the range of his talent you know didn't become known until later.
Thomas Mooney 25:13
This episode of new slang is brought to you by the blue light live here in Lubbock, Texas. Blue Light has long been the heart and soul of the Lubbock singer songwriter scene, and has been a home away from home for some a Texas Americana, country and rock and roll's finest over the years. Talk with 99.9% of the Songwriters who have come out of Lubbock and the panhandle at large over the past 20 years. And they'll point to just how integral and necessary the blue light is, with live music and touring slowly but surely coming back spots like the blue light, or getting back to their usual ways as well. That means music every night of the week. Do you want to see that schedule? Well, I've got a few options for you. One, go to their socials and give them a follow that is at blue light live on Twitter, at the blue light live on Instagram. And of course, by just searching the blue light live on Facebook, they're consistently posting that week's lineup of shows, as well as those heavy hitters that ought to be on your calendar that are coming up on the horizon. To check out blue light lubbock.com as well. There, they have the full schedule, the cover charges, time, any of those specials that may be happening while they're go check out their merch page, they have a wide range of hats, koozies, hoodies, sweaters, beanies, jackets, and so much more. You can of course get all of your merchant age, when you go see your favorite band, take the stage at blue light, just ask the bartender and they will get you all set. Speaking of which, that's another great way of seeing who's playing there. Just go to the blue light. It's at 1806 Buddy Holly Avenue here in Lubbock, Texas. And of course, again, that is blue light, loving, calm. I'll throw a link into the show notes to maybe I'll see you there. Okay, let's get back to the show. You mentioned Bush, early on as far as becoming really prolific and as a songwriter, you know, obviously, so many of his songs and so many of you all his catalogue in general, points back to rural Lubbock living this moment in time where, you know, you're, you're kind of basing a lot of songs off of the, I guess, like generations of family, who have lived out here for your family that that either were farmers or, you know, living out in Lubbock, rural living, and this moment in time that we've been talking about as far as like, getting where it's actually like, feasible to go out into the world and, and go out to California or go out to wherever you feel the the culture is right. What do you what do you feel like you were always like, I don't know, maybe like some of your first I guess, like, your first themes, your first kind of subject matter was always going to be tied to what life was like growing back, growing up in Lubbock, or in the South Plains in general?
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 28:30
Well, for myself, I don't think my writing has reflected that, as much as my general taste has been, because, you know, for, which, for one thing is just a true master of that. Of the, you know, you know, along with a lot of other stuff, but, you know, because most most of my writing has been less specific than that. It less you have graphically oriented or some of it, right. It's but but mostly My mind is tend to be more of a sort of esoteric or, you know, like, I don't know, our or maybe psychological maybe that's and but, but that that sense of it, that sense of the we've talked about this a lot. You know, Terry has talked about a lot Terry and and Butch and Joe and I all have have all through the years we've kind of talked about what is it you know, what, what was happening with us
that that
informed our music the way it did, and it's something a lot of it just remains a mystery. But Birkin and Terry both have talked on and on about, about how the I think Dwight Terry put it was that the horizon was You know, the main feature is like, we just wanted to know what was passed. And so we had to, we had to leave this sort of, and but I don't know, the the whole subject of what produces music is such a mysterious and an unending interesting question to me that, and I love it. I love to theorize about it, but I don't know anybody yet to come up with any real answers for any.
Thomas Mooney 30:41
Right? I mean, it's, it has probably be one of those things where there's no right answer, and there's no wrong answer. Yeah. And it's an even like, for an individual, it may be something for one song, and it may be something totally different. salutely
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 30:57
Exactly. That's right. Because whatever, like, kind of trips the switch to make you feel like you want to express something that that's, it's, it's luck again, in a sense, serendipity is always a big feature of, of all creativity.
Thomas Mooney 31:23
One of my favorite aspects of your catalogue, Joes and butches, the flatlanders, in general, one of these things that I've always really loved and appreciated as far as going and trying to figure out what's going on, is how there's a, there's a shared catalog, in a sense, where you guys are recording each other's songs, and you're re recording songs at different points in your life. For you, like what do you like to see, like that journey of that song as far as like, you know, something that was cut on like the first flatlanders record and seeing it then pass into what Joe does it on a solo record? And then then what you bring back to it? And what have you guys had conversations about that? And like, what maybe, like, brings you back to a song?
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 32:16
Well, you know, it is it's really, it's really fun to watch a song, metamorphosis, Assize over a period of time, but and, and we talk about these kinds of things all the time, but we also never really, once again, I, for for many, many years, I have once a year, I have taught a songwriting class at displays called the Omega Institute, in upstate New York, and a week long class and, and it I don't really, I don't really teach you, I sort of organize a situation where people do a bunch of writing together and then discuss how the process and so people learn about each other's process and each other, you know, so I decided I was going to organize it so that the class teaches the class. And, but these these sub what happened to me through the use of space for the first several years, I've done it for like 25 years. And the first several years was like, wow, me learning all these different attitudes that people have finding out all these different perspectives that people had. And also me have like having to learn how to articulate things that were the way I thought I already accepted a number head put it down on paper or or expressed it. So I have a kind of have a catalogue of a bunch of these thoughts and ideas about that hope about that whole subject in it. And like I said, it still remains there remains an element of mystery in it of like, Why in the world is a melody why certain melodies grab everybody, you know, why do Why? Why does a melody even do anything to you at all? That's weird, but it's still a fact. And thank goodness Yeah, you know, music music really, really really has a power and, and
Unknown Speaker 34:51
the
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 34:53
the love of it is something that brings a lot of people together. Your shared love of music is one of the greatest things that that Bond's communities together.
Thomas Mooney 35:09
Yeah, absolutely. It. It's a mystery. Yeah, I think it all it's a if we go back in history, it's the that's the what connects us to like the the fire, you know that the the story the telling of stories and trying to tell our story, right, in a lot of ways are like trying to figure out what that story is. Why why what connects us all together? And you know, it's it's it's one of those it's the chicken or the egg thing, right? As far as is it as telling the stories and we discovering why music is is like that connective tissue or is it the other way around? Where? You know, it's just the vehicle, but it's it? Yeah, it's a very, very fascinating thing. One of the things that I was wanting to ask you about was the last record you did with Dave, Alvin Downey to Lubbock. When I first heard that song, I really love the song specifically because it felt like you guys really tapped into this whole thing of where, of course, he's talking about Lubbock. And then you're talking about going out to California. And basically kind of in a lot of ways, having like, similar upbringings, but also thinking that maybe the other places where all the good stuffs happening. What was what was like, what was writing that song? Like, can you take me back to, I guess, like the origins of that song? And, and that project in general?
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 36:47
Well, it was that, you know, Dave started the song, he came up with that idea, you know, that I'm, I'm a downieville Lubbock bound, you know, and, and he, and then we were in the studio, recording it, and this is really kind of strange, but he had this this way. not usual. For me, I don't usually work in this way. And it wasn't planned. But in my mind, we were put in, I think this was the intention, you know, it was like, we're just going to put down some, some dummy tracks, to get it going. So that we have something to work on, you know, we'll have a forum and all that. And he had, he had a couple of verses. And then so and then and he had he laid out it's gonna be you know, him and then me and the chorus together and him and me and a chorus together. And then so I just kind of, I just totally ad libbed it, I just, I just, you know, he had his verses recorded and I I was in there in the, in the, in the booth, you know, and just, I just totally off the top of my head made up those verses. And then and I thought, okay, these are throw away, I'll you know, I'll go back to the hotel, we were out in LA so I was we did the whole all the recording out there. And, and, and I'll you know, I'll write some also don't really write some stuff with this. And when we got through with it, I said something like that the Davidson now he said, we already got it, you got it. I have so the scratch, you know, so and that. That was an unusual thing for me. It didn't even occur to me to think of it as that this was a what we were going to put on the actual record that I liked it. And once I got over the shock of him saying and we were going to did
yeah, I think you guys nailed that song. It's one of those things where like, That song is so infectious, the rhythm of the you kind of feel like that rhythm of the road of chugging along. And then, you know, it's like, wait, again, it taps into that whole thing of like wanting to get out of your hometown, and then like kind of figure in like, Oh, you know, this place these other places that we're going to aren't dissimilar from our own experiences, even though they're, you know, little a little different. The Mexican foods a little different. That's, I think that it's one of the one of the beauties of that of that collaboration between me and a was was the fact that we we did come From in certain ways and real dissimilar backgrounds, but in other ways, it was, like all musicians, you know, like we It was a shared trajectory, I guess with with at least musicians that you know, would live, we're not conservatory musicians that learn, you know, that learn in school and learned how to compose and all that stuff you were we're basically folk musicians, right? In, in de Volvo had an electric guitar, I was playing acoustic and harmonica, you know, so it insensitive, it's really untrained musicians expressing themselves. Absolutely. Kind of my definition of folk music. Right, which going back to this new record, it feels like there's there's a lot of maybe shared experience in that way where it's not necessarily, you know, you guys making up lyrics on the spot. But it feels like this new record is very, very organic in that same sense of like, that it wasn't necessarily like, Oh, we got to get a new record out right now.
Literally, in fact, it was recorded, it was actually brought about by using off time, when we were when we were doing other records, but we happen, everything happened to be set up. And let's and, you know, let's do some of these all things that we used to do. years ago, you know, and we always, we had done those songs, some of them 1000s of times, you know, and but had never recorded them. And it was, it was like, so there was very much at late, except for the brand new songs, you know, the couple that Butch wrote, and the one that co wrote, I didn't have any new ones on it. But that they, the rest of them were were things that we just had done a lot, many years ago and still liked them still liked the songs, you know, still were songs that we still might do now and then in a live show. So it was they had been through a certain kind of winnowing process that wasn't a matter of, you know, let's go back through and pick out which songs we should pull out into it didn't happen that way. It was like, hey, do you remember that? Oh, Leon rumbles on with his to do. And we we had Joe Joe actually had all the recordings in thing and he went through and kind of sifted through. Because we've got, there's a bunch more of them than these that that were sort of in that same form. And we, we probably wouldn't ever want to play them publicly because Lloyd hasn't been brought in yet to fix them.
Thomas Mooney 43:24
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Jimmie Dale Gilmore 46:35
Well, it's that's interesting. That's another like, really organic process that happened, Lloyd. And I knew the older man's brothers that, you know, his uncles, dad and uncles and, and he but Lloyd and a couple of the younger ones. We they we had some mutual friends that were DJs up in around Lubbock, you know, and they Lloyd was a fan of the flatlanders way before we ever did any recording or anything. He was one of the few people around Lubbock that ever heard his play, you know, he he heard us over the house. And he heard he heard us and, and long before he did any play in with us or anything. And then and that was so that was prior to the eally ban. Period, you know, which which was when Lloyd and, and, and Joe and you know Jesse Taylor course, you know when the Le ban happened for all those years and just was one of the best bands ever to come out of anywhere. Not just Lubbock, but anywhere. Hey. Well, so and then Lloyd. So Lloyd Purdue, I'm pretty sure he produced that the see. It's kind of a tangled history. It's kind of funny. I was actually I was friends with Terry. And with Butch and with Joe all separately. Oh, it before they knew each other was very weird. And, and I pretty much I didn't introduce introduced him to each other. But I brought Joe and Butch together I kind of deliberately made you engineered that to happen because I kept telling Joe I've got this friend that is written the best songs and you know, when we finally got together we're sitting there one night and witches playing some songs. And at some point Joe looked over at me when all I see what you mean. And but I had already been friends with Lloyd too. And then I was gone away. I've gone to Denver was gone, you know for the for most of the 70s Well, Lloyd came back to Lubbock and made his those records at at Cowell studios and where Lloyd was the producer in it so so Terry and Joe became friends through that process and I already had been friends with Terry before but not in that in that context. So So then, when Lloyd in a played with Joe all that time and then just just, of course, just more and more and more became recognized as his, you know, of musical giant. He, Lloyd also I think that my second high tone album Was which Lloyd produced in Nashville? I think that might have been the first record that Lloyd produced it was on a other than just a local like other than that, you know the the call well studios that what was it? What was his label? I can't remember that that all but that smoking the dummy and luck on everything and right. I can't remember the label that originally was on I thought, I guess I have to go look it up now in it. But anyway. And then Lloyd but So, once again, it was another like, organic process. Look, Lloyd was just such a close friend. And you know, and had been a fan. But, but before we even before we knew what a good musician he was. So it was it sort of it sort of happened. Accidentally in a way that we do. It's another one of those luck, lucky. Luck things,
Thomas Mooney 51:12
right? Yeah, I've Uh, I've often heard people talk about when it comes to Lloyd, as far as his producing style goes, is I think maybe we think of like producers, or these iconic producers having very distinct sounds as far as you know, like t bone Burnett or like Rick Rubin or any of these people have in very distinct sounds and feel to the the records that produce boat, Lloyd. I've often heard people kind of talk about how how much of a listener he is and how adaptive he is, as far as there's not. You can you can feel what's maybe a Lloyd Maines record is but it's not distinct because of him specifically. Yeah. It's just like, he's very adaptive as far as who he's working with.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 52:04
In in a sense, I think that's got a little bit to do with him being such a good musician. And and sideman, you know, he's, he's a guy that knows how to fit in with a band. And yet at the same time, he so he is authoritative. You know, he really does. He just, he's just got the IRS and the n n plus just such a pleasant personality to work with. That it's, he has, he has all the ingredients, you know, he, he does he deserved that wonderful reputation that he has? acquired.
Thomas Mooney 52:53
Right? Yeah. Now, another thing that that I find interesting, as far as you go, as far as your career goes, when it comes to releasing music, and I'm sure people have touched on this, as far as the new record, even, as far as this new record is about, I don't know, hills and valleys was 2009. So, you know, about 12 years ago, but like, you've you've had these moments in your career where you've had, you know, a 10 year pause, and of course, just the flatlanders in general, having this giant pause of, of, you know, of notoriety to being obviously the 90 record 1980 record a more legend than a band. Do you think that's always kind of helped y'all as far as you know, staying, staying? where like, these relationships are still strong, because there's not necessarily there's been room for y'all to have your own solo stuff. And there's been room for y'all to do individual things. That's, I guess that's where I'm going with this question. Do you think that's been kind of a necessary that having that room to grow in your own directions at the same time?
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 54:11
Yeah, I think it's been another great year. Good luck with that we had it was strange, because we came together so organically and really, out of friendship and mutual fan, fans of each other. We, we, the flatlanders didn't come together as like a commercial enterprise. It was, was totally for the love of the music was that was the whole thing that made it happen. And, and the whole circle of friends that were involved with you the whole It was like it was a creative bunch of people, the artists and writers and musicians and Everything dancers, you know, part of our gang, that that kind of kind of ended up sort of centering around the flatlanders. That was the music was always kind of, you know, the center of that. But the, the, it didn't get created as a band that was going to go take the world by storm. And you know that so that the first that first record was never really published until 10 years later, and that was in Europe. And then it was 10 years after that, when more alleged in that when it was published in the US. So it was 20 years old, when it was first released in the US. So in that 20 years, you know, we had done a lot get a lot of individual stuff, you know, it was like we never, we never did plan out any of that stuff. Okay, okay, now let's get back together. And it was like, it's just because circumstances arose that let it be possible. And we took advantage of it when it came up. It was all an experiment.
Thomas Mooney 56:17
Right? Yeah, it's, uh, going back to like that, the 70s version of the flatlanders, that 7172 era. You know, I've, I've heard that you guys had, where, you know, there's, there could be a lot of people who could claim that they were a flatlander at one point or another, or they were had played with a flatlanders during this era. And I think in a lot of ways, you guys are like a bridge point between a lot of different arrows and music, and specifically with someone like Tommy x Hancock as far as his his importance to Lubbock music before the flatlanders. And then the stems out of there, especially with what he did later with, you know, supernatural family band and what can you do you have any, can you can you expand on like, Tommy as far as, like, an individual who, I think maybe not a lot of loving people necessarily now know who that is, but obviously played such a pivotal role in what Lubbock music was, Oh, yeah.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 57:26
Yeah, that was that's a really interesting story in it. It was, oddly enough. Tommy had always he would, he was he was a local star, you know, and, and, in fact, Charlene was, was a television star and, you know, local, local love of television, when I think when she was a teenager, and, and Tommy was always the, you know, he, he always would, whatever the most popular country in western nightclub in town was, it would you would be Tommy owned it usually had the house band that played there, you know, and, but he was so he was, he was the springboard for all kinds of people, Buddy Holly and Waylon Jennings. He was he was the guy that gave them a platform. And then he and I became very close friends. He It was fun, a mutual friend of ours. He had gone to law school, and, and our old friend john mcdivitt, who is he hasn't been in Lubbock a long time, but he was he was my best friend in grade school. He was in law school with Tommy and they got to be friends. And so Tom, john, for several years kept telling me you need to meet Tommy Hancock. He's a new Tommy Hancock, you know, by repetition needs to but you can read him, he's just great. He's a wonderful, smart guy, you know, and he got he finally got us together. And Tommy and I became real close friends and because originally because of our shared interest in in, like metaphysics and, and spirituality and all that was kind of the main basis, but then, also when Tommy found out that I was, you know, he thought I was thought I was like a rock and roller that had been living in Austin, you know, he, when he found out that I was actually a country musician. His mind was blown. It was in and then that became the
Unknown Speaker 59:40
that
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 59:43
is actually a lot of the early days of the flatlanders weren't was started out it it Tommy and shorelines house and the kids, the supernatural family band kids, they were little they were kids, then They, we Tommy was. And he ended up actually playing on the record, he hurt. He didn't play much with us in any of the live performances, and where he didn't travel with us anywhere, like down to Austin and all that. But he did. He did play on the record. And he and the original incarnations before he ever recorded anything he was, he was just
right there in it, he was part of the band. And there's several, there's quite a few other people that were that we sort of thought of as members of the flatlanders.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:38
Yeah.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 1:00:41
Tommy was a major, major part of that. And it was really, because he and I had both the music and our other interests in common. We became really close. And that's a big part of the story of how the flatlanders happened. Mm hmm.
Thomas Mooney 1:01:05
Yeah, I think that like, that's one of those little things that maybe we don't necessarily think about. But, you know, you mentioned him being an owner of a club, the most of the most popular club in town always right, or like, Terry's dad, bringing in different music. Yeah, x. But Alan Yeah. Yeah. Having that's so integral to, to, you know, the foundation of a, of a, of a lot of people when, as far as their memories going back to Lubbock and becoming songwriters, and, or artists or musicians. And it's also, maybe there's an interesting thing where geographically since Lubbock is in the middle of nowhere, it's between, you know, major prices, maybe like, where these, the stars, of course, had to like, stop and in Lubbock, because of obviously, it's a good place to stop between California and, and wherever they're going back east, or vice versa. So how important do you do you remember going to a bunch of shows that like at the Cotton Club, or any of these other places growing up? Well,
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 1:02:22
when I when I was small, I didn't get because those were, you know, those they were rough places, and they were you know, it wasn't wasn't no family type atmosphere at all, you know, they were like, raunchy nightclubs, you know, and, and, but, but then later on, you know, applied applied the Cotton Club a lot with Tommy and, you know, but he had he had earlier clubs in cibola with the rendezvous club and you know, that that so and that, but I was too young at that time. I you know, I wasn't, I didn't and it the shows that I saw were more more like concerts. Like split sled Allen's like, like, I saw Elvis and Johnny Cash. You know, at the always thought it was the fair Park Coliseum. But it might have been that the sled owl on the arena that's what I think Terry thinks that's where and But anyway, it sometimes doesn't look all that up and get it really I know that that slid out and produced that stuff. And and I was and I think the there's there's so much hidden history behind it. My behind all of it, you that the as you said, it was a stopover point for a whole bunch of people. And so Tommy, Tommy was friends with everybody with all of those people because he would he'd had the club that they'd play it on the on the way through. And, and he, the little circle of friends that were several of them that were DJs in Lubbock, Waylon Jennings, Bill Mack was one of them. These were people that were influential on me before I ever knew they were musicians. Because they were DJs because you know, heard them on the radio all the time. And k triple l was one of the best radio stations in the world. It was the funniest it's its whole motif was crazy off the wall humor and and the Corman's slammin sky and you know all that all the was part of our beautiful I'm getting these messy my my granddaughter, her. It's got a real serious problem with our eye that came up the last couple of days. No. But anyway, we're, uh i think i think i diverted myself from the question you ask all the time, Lubbock being a stopover point. So it really was, it was a crossroads. And so I saw some of those people as they came through, you know, when I was younger, but mostly it was, things had changed a bit, you know, Willie Nelson came and saw the flatlanders in at the at the old town pump, which is on Fourth Street. I think it was fourth in queue or something like that. And it was in the days before he moved to Austin, you know, when he still had short hair and right in the woods. And he was there, he was there because he was part of that circle. Willie Willie was a star in Lubbock. Before he was nationally. Of course, his songwriting, he was a star as a writer, but as a performer, he was played on the radio in Lubbock, as if he was, you know, very major star, but before blue eyes crying in the rain, and all that.
Thomas Mooney 1:06:28
Right, they, that's what's so amazing about someone like Willie Nelson, is the I think sometimes, maybe like, young up and coming artists today, they, they think that if they don't have success by, you know, 25 or some ridiculously young number, then they're not successful. And then you kind of have to tell them, you know, hey, like that. But you have to tell them, you know, that like, Willie Nelson didn't have his like, first number one until he was like, 42 years old with Yeah, so like, you guys just give it some time. You know, it goes back to that whole thing of we're talking about at the very beginning, as far as the the hard work and the talent and the luck, allow some luck to come in. So one thing I'll get you out on his, his I think we always talk about Joey Lee, having like, you know, a lot of the the street cred with the clash, right. And, and all of that kind of, that's one of those things that everyone loves that relationship, and it's very, very awesome. Something that maybe not enough people know about, though, is that you and mud honey had put out an EP together. Yeah. I find that fascinating, right there as well. How did that come together? Like, how did you end up? You know, doing this a couple of singles with them?
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 1:07:59
Yeah, there was somebody at I was on Electra, at the time on and, and there was somebody at Electra that was a common friend who just came up with the idea. And he just, you know, he knew them. And you mean, he said, I think you guys would like each other, I think, which was true. And then it was an and we were, we were all of the, enough of the experimental nature to try it out. And it turned out to be just a wonderful. It was an experiment that, at least at work, it ended up, it ended up you know, bringing me to a circle of people that would never, ever, ever have heard of me. Otherwise,
Thomas Mooney 1:08:49
right? Yeah, that's one of those. When you look at the Jimmy Dale Gilmore catalog, you see that and you go, Oh, I wonder I have to go find this. And then you find it and then it just makes sense. You know, and I think it's just one of those things where, again, like we talked about Joe in the class, we need to talk about Jimmy Dale Gilmore and mud honey a little bit more. But it's been really good.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 1:09:15
I guess. I shouldn't The class was a bit more of a like a household name around the world but but but my head my mind had been honey really, really had a a real following a real you know, loyal following. And so is it was a that was a that was a good thing to happen if that period in my career.
Thomas Mooney 1:09:49
Yeah, I think so. as well. I mean, it's, uh, I just I go back every once while I listen to those songs right there that y'all did. And Yeah, I, it's been so great talking to you this afternoon. I really do enjoy this new record. I've been listening to it, driving around Lubbock, and I think it's, you know, obviously, people are gonna love it. And hopefully, more people go out and discover what the flatlanders through the flatlanders were.
Jimmie Dale Gilmore 1:10:22
Well, I hope so that would be that would be really fun. It's, it's fun to watch it unfold. And I really like the fact that you, you, you know, a bunch of the history our that's, that's encouraging to me to know, some of the background there.
Thomas Mooney 1:10:47
Yeah, it's been it's one of those things where I moved up here. I grew up in Fort Stockton and I moved up here to go to school and always been fascinated with music and was going to school for journalism and just the two worlds collided and know a lot of like the local guys that the scene right now and what's been coming out and then of course when you do that you go back and start discovering more of the people before there and you know, trying to find where were certain points are on the in the love of history map and all that kind of stuff. And oh, this is where this bar was and this is where this was at and yeah, that kind of stuff. So it's been a I enjoy all the the looking of the love of music history. Alright, that is it. For this episode. Be sure to check out our presenting partners over at Desert door and the blue light live here in Lubbock, Texas. As mentioned up top this is one of a three part series with the flatlanders This episode was obviously with Jimmie Dale Gilmore. Later this week, I'm joined by Joe ealy and Butch Hancock of the flatlanders Be sure to subscribe if you haven't just yet. And yeah, thanks so much for listening.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai