121: Tony Kamel of Wood & Wire

On Episode 121, I'm joined by Tony Kamel of Austin band Wood & Wire. The bluegrass Americana outfit just released their fourth studio full-length, the excellent No Matter Where It Goes from Here, a few weeks back. Working out of The Zone out in Dripping Springs, Texas with co-producer/engineer Pat Manske, the quartet has been able to stretch their legs. Mainly by having ample time to experiment with fresh and new recording setups and utilize the studio's vast array of vintage analog gear. With that in mind, Wood & Wire's latest sees the band pushing their boundaries creating a dynamic, robust, and vibrant sonic punch. Songs like "Pigs" and "Home and the Banjo" offer clever, introspective commentary on society while the epic closing rambler "Clamp's Chute" scratches that bluegrass instrumental jam itch.

During this conversation, we talk about the recording and writing of the album, how the pandemic has affected Kamel's creative process, the joy & frustration of that creative process, recording at Bruce Robison's The Next Waltz, and Wood & Wire's democratic approach to creating songs and albums.

This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol and The Blue Light Live.

Interview Transcript

Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.

Thomas Mooney 0:01

everyone welcome to another episode of the new slang. I'm your host music journalist Thomas Mooney. And today I am joined by singer songwriter Tony Kamel of the Austin outfit Wood & Wire. I've known Tony for a while now, really ever since the beginning of the band. If you go back, you can probably find two or three old interviews with Tony back on new slang back when it was just a digital music blog. So yeah, it was obviously really great catching up with Tony wood and wire just released a new album called no matter where it goes from here, if you remember, it was part of that big August 28 release date. What I like so much about what in wire is how they're kind of a melting pot of a band, for most wood and wire is easily going to be kind of categorized as just quote unquote, bluegrass, but a lot of their songs, they're shaped and they're influenced by the great singer songwriters, and storytellers of country Americana and the like. And there's songs that usually meet in the middle of those, those classic bluegrass elements, the mandolin, and banjo, acoustic guitar, upright bass. And then, of course, these strong storytelling and narrative elements, which Yes, I understand that that can be a major cog in bluegrass as well. But what I'm saying is that there's a little bit more of a contemporary feel to them. You see it a lot in the songs like john pigs home in the banjo and my hometown off this new album. And you also see a really great balance here as well. I think a lot of the songs on this album, there's this blend of introspective thoughts and outward cultural commentary. And of course, how those two can affect one another home in the banjo and pigs, especially a lot of times you expect these subjects to be serious in nature, and there is some seriousness, but they're also able to lighten the mood with some of that commentary. A lot of that is driven home with the expressions and the idioms used on pigs. And then some of that commentary that happens on home and the banjo lines like bluegrass has gone mp3. There's a lot of character built with these kind of lines in those songs. And then of course, in saying all that wood and wire, they're just ridiculously great players as well. So there is this incredible musicianship that shines really probably the brightest on the Instrumental Work. A perfect example of that is the album closing clamp shoot. Anyway, I really enjoyed this conversation with Tony, we cover a lot of ground and talk about songwriting on a personal level. A lot of what happens on this album, and then a little bit more of a macro look at the music scene in general. Today's presenting sponsor is desert door, Texas SoTL. If you know anything about me, it's probably that I'm from the heart of West Texas and absolutely love everything about West Texas. And that's really why I love desert door so much. You may be asking yourself what exactly SoTL is, well, it's a premium spirit that's similar to a tequila or a scowl. But for my money, it's a little bit more refined and smooth. There's a sweetness and faint hints of vanilla and citrus and it's also as versatile as your garden variety vodka. At its core desert door is authentically West Texas, they go out and harvest Soto plants from the wild and bring them back to their distillery over in driftwood, Texas. So next time you're at your local liquor store, get a bottle of desert door. For more info, check this episode's show notes. If this is your first time listening to new slang, I strongly suggest hitting that subscribe link. If you just did, I'm giving you a virtual High Five right now. Newsline is over on iTunes, Spotify, Google podcast, Stitcher, radio, and basically any and everywhere you listen to podcasts. Go check out the new slang merch store. Grab a koozie some stickers, buttons and magnets. Any bit helps. I'll throw a link into the show notes. And if you're into playlist, go check out Tom mooneyes cup of coffee and the neon Eon playlist over on Spotify. The Neon is for all your nostalgic 90s country needs, which there's going to be more neon Eon related stuff coming your way pretty soon. And then Tom mooneyes cup of coffee is a regularly updated mix of new Americana and country music. It's also a really great hint who I have coming up on the podcast. So yeah, go follow those. Alright, let's go ahead and get on to the interview here is Tony Campbell of wooden wire.

I guess we'll just go ahead and so off like you guys released this new record just a couple weeks ago, and that August 28 date was just a monster of a album release date there was like, you know, 567 albums of people that were you know, on that list of like, Hey, you need to check these out today. I don't know how you're gonna fit them all in, but check them all out today. Yeah, so like, you guys obviously released this album and you know, like, what, what, what was the plan, I guess going in to release the album but also due to the situation right now the unfortunate events of of 2020. What did that have any effect on what you guys had to do? As far as the release date and all that kind of stuff?

Tony Kamel 5:32

Yeah, kinda there was a lot of different factories actually. Were on a small record label out of Houston. And they have a employee in Nashville as well. It's real small, great label really like working with him. They're super artist centered. But the owner of the label and the head guy had to have a double lung transplant in January or in February. And that was another factor that was right before the pandemic. And by then we kind of had it that we were in the mixing phases. And the plan, honestly, even with the ambiguity, ambiguity of not knowing how the record label would feel bad timing was to do it in the fall. And then, you know, long story short. We didn't hear from him for a while he was in recovery. And we didn't really even know how well he was doing. But then one day, he called us called me and then he called Billy, and he sounded like a million bucks. Like, it was like he had come back from the dead or something. Yeah. And he was like, we had discussed as a band because the pandemic to push it to January or February, like a lot of people decided to do. And then after talking to him, he's like, No, I don't think so. Let's put it out. People need music. And we agreed, and we just decided collectively as a team that we should give the music to the people during this weird time. And just because we can't play shows, we, we didn't really see that as a reason not to release the music. I mean, we do play a lot of shows, and we love playing shows. But it's like Billy, a mandolin player said it kind of harkens back to the honest part of this business or world or music world is that you want to make art and you want to put it out there. And, you know, the financial or strategic reasons to do so shouldn't affect, you know, you're making of the art and sharing the art with with the public. So we decided that this was a good time for them, for people to hear it and kind of felt like they needed it. And we thought maybe it could work to our advantage because most people are at home and people who really love musical pop it on and listen all the way through. And give it a good, good listen. So that was kind of our thinking. And yeah, it was a busy release day. And there are some fantastic records that came out that day. And, you know, I mean, it's one way to look at it that we were in a crowded field and might not have good, gotten a good look. But I was also just really happy to see so much good music coming out. Because I had heard of a lot of people pushing their records to next year. And yeah, there's no reason to think that February March is can be a hell of a lot different than it is now. At this point. So right. Yeah, so you know, I mean, it just felt like, let's just do it. Let's give it to the people. You know, once once we're done with it, it's not ours anymore. It's theirs.

Thomas Mooney 8:29

Yeah. You know, like the the thing on that business release date. I think sometimes that that can be such a big help because it's, even though it sounds the exact opposite. Because like, let's say you got that one person who goes in and they hear about like, this been a massive day and then you know, 123 Records in you know, they start buying them up and like, they may just, I don't wanna say splurge but you know, they may be buying up, you know, five, six records that one day just because of how the I don't want to say necessarily the media but like, you know, just everyone kind of pushing that date is like, Hey, you guys need to check it out this date versus maybe them checking out. I mean, like dismissing other days, you know, just because it's not necessarily on their radar. So

Tony Kamel 9:21

sure, sure. Sure. Yeah, it makes sense. And but I gotta tell you, man, I when I saw the list of records coming out that day, I was like, Oh my goodness, this is a big day. Yeah. And and yeah, I kind of I was proud to be among the names you know, I thought you know, there's some records on it that I really enjoy. I thought Colter walls record is really fantastic. Among among others to Zeff Stephen out her has got a cool sound. I've loved him for a long time, and I like his new record too. And, and really for us, we were the only bluegrass came out emmalee total is a great singer and bluegrass guitarist, but she's, she leans more towards indie rock or indie folk these days. And, and so for us, we were also the only sort of, I mean, I guess you could say we don't, we don't have a traditional bluegrass sound, but but we were the only one in the bluegrass category that came out that day. So although we were also sitting on an island of sorts,

Thomas Mooney 10:22

yeah. Yeah. Going back to the, you know, do we really sit now? Is it going to be better in January? Is it going to be any different? You know, these last few months talking with people, it's been really just, I guess, like, I guess we're, we're studying this almost in real time. And no one has like the a game plan that we're there's the right answers. And it feels like early on back in March, people were putting their records off for like a month or two, hoping that like, sometime in the late summer or early fall, around this time that we would kind of be over a massive chunk of this and kind of getting back to a little bit of normalcy. But then, you know, at some point, like, I think we all kind of realize, Oh, that's probably, you know, a pipe dream at this point. And it's been just really interesting to see how people have have handled their release dates, because I just feel for you guys, I can be I empathize with this, like, you guys have been working on this way longer than these past six months, like you guys had it in the can kind of like, what do we do with it, and you don't want to sit on it for too long, because you guys kind of a like, you've you put all this hard work into recording it and writing it and, and practicing and all that the stuff that goes into writing and creating. And sometimes it's like, we don't want to just like pass this moment, we don't want this moment to pass by. Because at some point, you know, we are creating other stuff. And we did you know what I mean? Like you kind of want to give it its own, its own time to get out. And sometimes it feels like you can let that moment that phase of that time to sometimes you can just let that pass by.

Tony Kamel 12:15

Right? Yeah, I think that there's I learned a while back that you can't control everything, you know, there's actually very little you can control for our power, we can control the music. And it kind of just came down to that it's like, we're totally out of control here. And it seems like we're gonna be for a while. And we put a lot of work into this thing, we're done with it, and we want people to hear it. And it was really that simple. For us. It makes a big difference to have a we're we work with a really, you know, bluecore music is the record label we're on, we're on and they in full support of us just go ahead and put it out there, they didn't have profits or money, or any of that stuff in mind, you know, they wanted us to share the music with the world and, and wanted us to do it the way we want it to. And we're lucky that we're not dealing with the big machine. You know what I mean? I don't know how those bigger labels are dealing with it. I don't want to know, no, I, I it's not our that's not what we do. You know, if we wanted to be, you know, signing with a big record label, we'd be probably wouldn't be playing bluegrass music, you know. So it's all about freedom for us, you know, we want to do what we want to do, we want to make the music we want to make and we want to release it how we want to release it. If we don't do exactly what we want to do is there's no way this this band even works.

Thomas Mooney 13:43

Yeah. You know, like the the big machine aspect of it. I was talking with someone about because like the Dixie Chicks or the chicks. Now, they push that record back. And, you know, it was to me that said for them, like being on that kind of level. We were talking about, you know, they were I guess the person was saying how they could just release that record. Like they're so massive It doesn't matter. When they release it, they could release it tomorrow and it would sell a million records. And one of the things I was like well you know, I wonder is when they're that giant like just the the the logistics side of things of like actually creating CDs, I guarantee you like they've not had like the just the the manpower to be able to like actually create physical CDs for wherever they're selling them in target and Walmart and stuff. And, you know, I was like I think that like that's probably more so why they had to push back the actual release date is so they could guarantee that part because, you know, that's something like we probably don't really think about when it comes to when you're, you know, an artist that massive, you know, like all the right that part of The the game I guess?

Tony Kamel 15:01

Yeah, who knows, man? I mean, it's, uh, I certainly wish that sometimes I wish we had those problems, you know, hey, we got to get so many CDs out. We don't have the manpower to do it. But But yeah, I mean, there's there's a, there's a massive even if they were independent artists of that size, you know, they're independent artists that are much more popular than we are that that would be thinking about the exact same thing, you know, how are we going to get all this stuff done? And a lot of them do it on their own. But, but I think a lot of that stuff is happening automatically to you know, there, you can you can buy a CD off Amazon or you can there third party shipping, places that handle all the merge for some bigger artists, and I think a lot of them are still up and running. We don't have those thought processes in our situation. And, you know, we do we do it all by hand, essentially. And happy to do it that way. Yeah,

Thomas Mooney 15:58

I mean, I've got a little bit of new slang words out there. And like, it's, it's the same thing. Like it's all here in my office. So it's anytime something and it's not many orders. It's like, okay, yeah, here.

Tony Kamel 16:12

It's all over my house. My wife is like to get rid of this shit, man. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, we're trying to come up with I mean, look, we were always trying to figure out how to make a living playing music. The vast majority of us, in the music world, as you know, are in the middle class. Yeah, we're not making shit tons of money. And we but we're not necessarily starving, or at least we weren't before. And we're in this middle class world, where that's where the big, the vast majority of music, musicians live in this middle class of music, and, you know, I'm happy to be there at all, I'm happy to be doing it. But that's the deal. It's like this kind of a situation. It's, it's tough on the vast majority of us in that in that category. And so I mean, trying to strategize around the whole thing, it's almost pointless, you know, cuz you're just throwing it out there. I'm just rambling now, because I'm not even sure how to wrap my head around, what we're looking at over the next year, you know, we just sort of thrown it all into the wind, like, Whatever happens happens. I really hope people like the record, and it permeates you know, the one of the positives I can see is that people will listen to the recorded music, and really enjoy it and wear it out. And then down the line, when we can play a big show. They really want to hear it hear the songs, you know, we're a song centered band, and, and they want to really hope they want to hear the songs live.

Thomas Mooney 17:55

Yeah. You know, like, that may be one of those things that we're not even necessarily, maybe like one of those little silver linings of all this too, is like, how often have you played a show where, you know, I guess it's that cliche joke about, Oh, we got a new one. And then everyone kind of goes to the go get a bar or go to the bar to get a drink? You know? Yeah, exactly.

Tony Kamel 18:17

What

Thomas Mooney 18:17

about like Jackson in six, eight months? There, they're already familiar with these new songs, you know, so that that may be one of those little added bonuses that we can all take from this, I guess, you know,

Tony Kamel 18:31

I hope so, man, because you know how it is, I mean, how it's always been, you put out a record than your tour, and the records been out a few weeks. And, and it takes a while for me personally to, I like to listen to records five, six times, and I really get to know them. And, you know, I think there are a lot of fans in our world that like that, too. And I think, you know, if we're lucky, and we can get back sooner than later. That's what I'm hoping not hoping for is that they really know the songs they'll be singing along and ready for, as opposed to, hey, let me play this stuff that you guys have had basically never heard before. I'm looking forward to that. In the meantime, we'll just do whatever we need to do. If I need to get a job. That's no big deal. I've always been down to get a job if remains, I can keep playing music. You know, I mean, I see it as a as that as a necessary necessity. If that's a necessity for me to keep doing this, then I'll do it for a while. It's not a big deal. Yeah, some people see it as a big failure. But you know, I mean, a lot of the best musicians out there are craftsmen of sorts, or they have another skill that they do on the side, you know, and, and I don't I don't want to be any exception to that. I'm totally down to get my hands dirty and work. That's what I did for a long time and then I took a buttoned up sales job. I don't want to go back After that, but I'd like to find some kind of a way to work with my hands and work outside and get dirty for a while learn learn some new skills and, and things like that. Yeah, I'm No, I'm fine with that as long as down the line, I can get back to doing this and, and, and, and bringing the music to people I think the guys in the band degree you know, we all want to do this for a living but it ebbs and flows for people in the middle class and music, you know, I mean, even I mean, all these all these guys, you talk to a lot of them have other stuff they're interested in, you know,

Unknown Speaker 20:35

right.

Tony Kamel 20:36

Colter Wallace runs cattle, you know, and a lot of these, I mean, just everyone has has other parts of their lives that they don't talk about that much, you know what I mean? So, I think we're all kind of looking at that as a place to be for a little while. And, but I think most of us want to get back to doing this, most of the time.

Thomas Mooney 20:57

This episode is in part brought to you by the blue light live here in Lubbock, Texas, while blue light is still close due to the pandemic, there is a way to help a support blue light, and B, get a sense of that normalcy by visiting blue light, loving, calm, clicking on the merge tab, and getting some koozies a vast array of T shirts and caps, and yes, even a blue light flag. While it is such a bummer, that live music is still on hold right now. I'm telling you, by getting some blue light, live merge, we're gonna feel better, it just feels better wearing a T shirt and ballcap and helping support your favorite bar. Again, that's blue light. lubbock.com click on the merge tab, get some merge. All right, back to the episode. You know, one of the big things that that's, I guess been a revelation for me, has been talking with somebody like Terry Allen, because, you know, I think it's so easy to just kind of fixate on you guys. Oh, you're a guitar player. You're a songwriter, you're a painter, you're and and talking with him. It was never, it's never been like that. It's never been like this. Oh, I'm, I'm just this, it's, I'm, I'm an artist, you know, whatever. Whatever it is that that's wanting that's made me want to create, it tells me you know, and so like, yeah, like I think a lot of times we kind of fixate on like, Oh, this person being a singer songwriter, or a musician. And if you've ever looked back through time, even just like in anybody that you that you've in this music scene, you know that they're creative and talented in other in other forms, right? Like even right. Like that with Terry right? He's painting and he sculpting or, like Joey Lee, he's writing poetry and writing books. And you know, like, guy Clark, I think like him building guitars, that's like he did he do that as, as his full time thing? No, but like, I guarantee you building a guitar helps you be a better songwriter. And I think like you're talking with a lot of people during this. The most of the people who have been the most productive have been able to channel all that energy into other little things that have, hopefully are going to help them be better creatives down the line. What is

Tony Kamel 23:41

exactly, yeah, exactly.

Thomas Mooney 23:43

Is there anything specific for you that you've kind of focused on or during this time? Or what what's kind of been been driving you to as far as being on the creative side and in production, I guess productive?

Tony Kamel 23:59

Yeah, I think I think a lot of us musicians, when we ended up in this situation, we really didn't a lot of songwriters, really. We didn't really feel like writing. Yeah, I think we felt this weird pressure to be like, hey, well, now you got all this time off, let's get to work. But I don't write that way. And I think a lot of songwriters don't write that way. We we, we get inspiration and it comes in waves and and we just ride the waves real hard when they come from my part. I spent the first month just kind of stressed out about it and anxious about the future. And I pick up a guitar and try to force the song out when I try to force it. It just sucks. It's not good, you know? And so I'll put it away and I had some fun doing some live streams. I had a good time doing some solo live streams and I enjoy doing solo stuff and and all that but we're really kind of centered me was we have a family got some property in Atlanta, Texas has been in the family since the 70s. And you know, the house is old and it was built My granddad and his buddies and they weren't, you know, Master Builders. So it's got problems, and I had plenty of work to do out there. So I'd go out there and, and just sort of meditate on that for a while and work on the land and I love it out there and do some fly fishing. And, and just enjoy it and, you know, take pardon some psychoactive experiences, and just sort of let myself understand that this nothing's gonna be the same and it never will be. And let myself relax into whatever the future might hold. And that has brought has started started to bubble up some inspiration. So I've been going there a lot. And I spend a lot of time with my wife, which I've really enjoyed, you know, I haven't spent a summer home in five or six years. And, and that's all been good. And honestly, I'm just now starting to feel the creative waves kind of coming back now that this records out there. It feels like it's time for me to try to get that spark going again, and I can feel it again. So when that happens, I'll go back out to the ranch alone. And usually I'll spend a couple of days there just by myself. Writing and I'll write I'll spend like the first morning, just freeform writing, you know, just spitting out random words, is something I learned to do. And a book I read, it kind of helps clear the the creative mind, I think, and I kind of thought it was cheesy at first, but it actually really worked for me is just basically freeform writing for 2030 minutes or an hour as long as it goes. And then then I'll drive around and do some work and then and then I'll sit down and go through my phone because I think a lot of us will sing melodies into our phone with me here. I'm personally a melody first songwriter, I'll, I'll hear a melody helmet into my phone or gibberish, sing it into my phone and then reference it later. But I'll write things down that I want to write about her little lines here and there as they come to me hooks. I'll just put all that stuff together and buckled down. And but I only buckled down and work hard on it. When I'm ready when I feel like it when I've done stuff outside of music that can let my mind relax and find some inspiration. Maybe it's the same places of people, weirdos and stuff that have inspired me before, like the Gulf Coast is a real inspiration for me. And the hill country, for sure. But my family and friends and people I like to write about people a lot. And but but you can find new angles and, and new places and new people as well. But, but I only go into that place in my mind when I'm ready. You know, I I know songwriters that try to write a song a day. And I'm just not that kind of songwriter. And, frankly, most of my favorite songwriters kind of art, you know, and, and they do other stuff. I think there are a lot of songwriters, it's like, it's kind of like the opposite of what we're talking about. I mean, they live and breathe it so deeply. And sometimes they overthink it. And I'm certainly guilty of that too. Like I overthink my songs all the time. But I found my best stuff comes and I've learned from a lot of my friends that I really respect they're, they're similar in that they, they, they when they're relaxed and and has spent some time away from music is when they get the best stuff.

Thomas Mooney 28:37

Yeah, you know, like a lot of that. It's It's funny, because I think that, you know, a year ago, you ask somebody who's a creative, like, what's the one thing that could help your art? And they would probably say time, and, you know, it's like, oh, here's on a silver platter. And as you know, here's all this time to work on something. But yeah, as you said, like it kind of doesn't work like that. And I what I'm interested in is seeing how I think, again, like we kind of like put it in a box as far as like, Oh, you wrote this song. And when you're writing a song, it's when you pick up the guitar, pick up the pen and paper and start physically writing it. But what I think that like, we've learned so much more about is how a lot of the writing has been taken play is taking place, like long before you've ever, you know, started actually putting it down, you know, like it's, you've talked a little bit about this, like clear, conscious part. And to me that's like, that's like pure shower thoughts. You know what I mean? Like whenever you're kind of doing something else and it's helped. Where for me like it's always like washing dishes or like folding laundry or just like picking up around your house. That's whenever I'm probably like just stuff that's so easy to do. But you're not really focused on and that's whenever your mind's just able to, like free freely think. And I think like, that adds so much to the actual, it makes it easier I guess maybe to whenever whenever you do actually pick up the instruments to, to jot down the song.

Tony Kamel 30:26

Yeah, absolutely, there's no question about it, there's no question about it, your, your mind, and this is that I'm speaking for myself here, you know, people, there's so many different methods of songwriting, and there's so many different people that do it really well that do it completely differently. But for me, that's exactly right. And you're a writer, too, you may have a similar approach. But I've got to be in the right place. I'm certainly forced a few songs like, you know, someone will say, hey, write a song for this. And if I'm excited about what it's for, then I might be able to get one out that I really like. And, and a lot of my favorite songs of mine came out really quickly. But but as a whole, on a macro level, it's a much more meta thing. It's like, I have to be in the right place. And ready to like, go through the painful part of it, because frankly, I love songwriting. I love it. But I don't always like it. You know what I mean? I love that I wrote this song that I went to, it could be a really happy place, there could be a nostalgic place could be really difficult, sad place an angry place. I love that I went there and worked through it. I'm proud that I, you know, tried to put those thoughts on the page. And I'm not saying that I write deep songs every time you know, I mean, I like writing songs about silly stuff, too, and writing funny songs and, and stuff like that. And but it's just not always fun. You know what I mean? It's just not always, it's a craft, and tons of songwriters who said this, because it's true. It's more of a craft. It's something you work on. I don't want to be pretentious about it at all, because it's also just, it's also not that big a deal. But for me personally, it's like, I don't always like it. But But I love that. That I did it. And I don't think I heard this quote recently. I'm not sure who actually said it. But I think Harold Ramis, this comedian, actor that I loved, and you may people know who he is, he was he gone into Ghostbusters, and directed Caddyshack and all that he said, and I think he was quoting someone else. But he's like, I don't love writing, but I love having written. You know what I mean? So it's, it's, it's not even like a love hate thing. It's just a place that it can be frustrating, you know, you want to be able to eat, we've done it as songwriters, most of us have done it, where we sit down, and we write a great song in like, 20 or 30 minutes, it happens, right. And a lot of times, those are the ones that are really, really good. But when that's not happening, it can be just frustrating to, like, find the right thing. And, and, and make it sound unique. And the more you the more that I write personally, the more I don't like what I've written in the written now because I don't want to, like repeat what I've done before, you know, so, so But in any case, it's like, it's just what I'm going to do and, and I'm going to go through those, the pain and the joy of it, you know, and I'm making it sound bigger and kind of pompous the way I'm talking about it. And I don't mean to because it's, it's really not that big a deal, you know, to be writing songs in my mind, I, I don't like to give it this weight, even though it's something that you and I really love and respect is a craft that so many of our heroes have done over the years. It's also like sometimes I write a song and I'm like, Oh, that's a that's a cool, so I like it, but then sell meet someone who's like, Man, that song changed my life or something like that, you know, this song really helped me through bad time. To me, it's like, well, really, I mean, it's no big deal. It's just a song I wrote one day, you know, right. But in any case, like, yeah, you don't get to choose how people will react to you. And once you give it to the public, and give it to the people to theirs, and they're going to interpret it, how they interpret it, you can explain it all day long. Oh, this is about, you know, my friend who, who, you know, did this and he's sort of a fun character. This is about when my dad died, you know, but they're going to reinterpret it to make make it relevant in their own lives. And then you don't get to choose how they how they do that. So you got to let go of that as well.

Thomas Mooney 34:47

Yeah, you know, like I, you talked about how you know, this is you don't want to make this sound you know, super hard or difficult or, you know, the pompous stuff but I think that like When you love something so much, that's when you can nitpick it. And I always feel like some people probably think that. I'm a pessimists about art or like, don't like anything, and it's like, no, I actually love, like the song so much that like, I feel like you're allowed some, you're able to pick out like the little stuff that makes it difficult and, or that you don't like, you know, or whatever the case is. Sure. And I think that, like, you're really onto something about the whole. You love songwriting, but sometimes you don't like it. Because I think anytime, like I just in relation to what I do, sometimes, sometimes writing about somebody is is difficult. And it's not even necessarily like, Oh, I don't know what to say about this person. It doesn't have to be that it can be something where like, I like this band so much, I've got like five or six things I want to say about them right now. And I want to say them all at once. And you you can't do that. And it's the frustration of writing that down and trying to like, relay that message. And a lot of times you probably feel this too, I know that a lot of times you get you can get like a writer's high after writing something. But sometimes you can also just be like, spent, you can just kind of be like, Oh, I need to go and just for me, I'm always like, I just need to go watch some trash TV or like play some video games for you know, 3040 Absolutely.

Tony Kamel 36:31

Just

Thomas Mooney 36:33

to not have to think anymore.

Tony Kamel 36:36

You're right, man. I that's absolutely right, man. It's, it's true. And not always true. But, but sometimes it's it's definitely that can definitely be the case. And, and I'm not a real outwardly emotional guy, you know, I don't wear my heart on my sleeve. And, but I do, you know, I like to take my lack of that in my day to day life and, and at least apply it somewhat, to songwriting. And that is a cliche thing to say, but, you know, I mean, I'm I, it's not like, I don't treat it like therapy, it's just something I kind of feel like I have to do. And I, I do love to do. So. I'm gonna keep doing it. You know, I mean, it's weird, because times are changing, you know, and there's, it's, people expect the industry and the people expect a lot of content. And, and it's, it's difficult to see how it's always difficult to see how you can make it happen for the rest of your life. You know, that's why I think letting go of the I have the pressure of only being a musician is something that's important for me, it's like, yeah, I'm interested in other stuff, too. And this is just another thing I do. That's why I love Terry Allen. And, and you know, I'm not sure if and this is, I'm not sure if you've had James stylee on the podcast.

Thomas Mooney 38:05

I've talked with James a few times. Yeah.

Tony Kamel 38:07

Yeah, he's he's like, you know, a little he's, he's Terry Allen. His biggest inspiration is Terry Allen and James and I talk a lot about that now. It's like, Hey, man, you know, art is art. And then there's everything else you got me. So in any case, I just love making music and making art and, and that's it. I'm not trying to be hip, you know, I don't dress hip or look cool, or, or really act. I'm kind of boring. You know, I'm not I don't have a lot of sex people. As far as my personality and like, stuff like that goes, I just, I just want to make music. You know, I don't, I don't want to. I don't care about running around with certain crowds and stuff like that, you know, if I did, I probably wouldn't probably be doing things a lot differently. But it's just, it's mostly especially as I've gotten older, when I'm young, when I was younger. When we started wooden wire, I was so inexperienced in being in a band, I was so inexperienced, I was a very inexperienced performer. I mean, that was basically my first band to be in and you know, lots happened since then. I've learned a lot and and I've really found the value in in just focusing really hard on the on the art and and and I do I'm one of the there are a lot of musicians Believe it or not, I'm not one of them that don't really like to perform live like it's not their favorite thing to do. And I love to before I love the stage I you know, I was an actor I was I've done some acting over the years and stuff like that I love to perform for live audiences. So that's something I really do. I really do love so I like to focus on making the art and part of that is is expressing it in a live setting in front of people. Maybe that's because I have a bit of an ego. I don't know. But whatever it is, I just like bring Enjoy to, to people and, and given them entertainment and I never take it for granted. You know, it's, it's the older I get, the less likely I am to get out of my house and go somewhere and I don't have kids, but you know, when I do, I can see that being a much more logistically challenging thing and people come to it to see us all the time. And it's a real honor that people will leave their homes and, and it says a lot, you know, you forget, sometimes you might take it for granted that, that people planned, you know, weeks ahead of time got babysitters, paid for for babysitters paid for dinner paid, you know, spent a lot of money and, and took time to get out and come enjoy the music. Yeah, that that that is like, that's what keeps me excited, frankly.

Thomas Mooney 40:50

Yeah, you know, like, that's, that's something I've come to learn to on on a lot of this is that, you know, it's very, it's very easy to get frustrated with like, oh, why? Why aren't the masses like, why aren't you like, the biggest band in the world? If I think you're the greatest band, and like, there's the Why do people listen to let's just throw Luke Bryan and why why is he like, the most famous country artist right now or whatever the case is, and it's very easy to, to get frustrated by that kind of thing. But then, at some point, you realize, man, you know, like, I'm just a little bit different than everyone else. Because, like, I just have time to do this, you know, I can listen to records all day. And I can, like, over examine this and a lot of other people don't have the, the privilege and the bandwidth to you know, check out all these like, quote unquote, unknown songwriters who, and you know, they're, they're creating really great art and everything, but like, you know, like, they these people are working 40 hour jobs and going to soccer practice, and, you know, everything that goes along with, like, you know, raising a family and whatnot. And sometimes, you know, like, just, they're not gonna be checking out that record necessarily driving to and from work, especially when there's maybe kids in the, in the backseat and whatnot. And so yeah, like, when I say when, when they do go out and like, find these bands and all that process of, you know, he said, like, the babysitter and having to plan out dates, days like that. Yeah, that makes it that makes it special in that, I think that's important for a lot of artists to, to understand, or at least appreciate.

Tony Kamel 42:38

Yeah, you know, that man, it's, it's, it's a, you know, it's, it's easy for guys like you and I to forget that the vast majority of people are just dealing with a lot of stuff in their personal lives. And, and I stopped being bitter about people liking music that I hated A while ago, you know, I finally let go that it took me a while, you know, it really did as a young sort of chest beating guy, I guess back then. And like, I just didn't get it, but I don't I don't have bitterness towards it, or the people that are making it anymore. You know, it's just, I don't have room in my, I don't have enough energy for that anymore. I'm lucky to have one person, come see what and why or play or me play whatever, you know, it's it's all it's all just you're absolutely right. It's a big privilege to when someone comes out and, and does that and, and you make a really good point that I didn't I haven't necessarily thought about, like, a lot of people don't have the bandwidth to, to dig in so deep. Right.

Thomas Mooney 43:34

Yeah. But like, again, like let's say you have your commute and you are dropping the kids off in school and you know, you put on a record that is that you've been told is you know, a deep record. Well, you know, like the kids in the backseat talking over to having their iPhone on blasting over it. Maybe that's like that's not the right proper setting to take in a Terry Allen record or you're getting like, freakin you know, people are cutting you off in traffic and all that all this stuff that can like just fuck up your day. Right? And so it's easy to like, just understand the I guess what I'm saying is I'm long story short, is I'm sympathetic, sympathetic to, to all that kind of stuff. But I think like, again, going going back to that whole, you know, it's very when you're young, it's very easy to be pissed off that like, why isn't let's just keep on using Terry Allen as an example. Why isn't he like the most known songwriter in the world? You know, and what are it's very easy to like, be negative, it's very easy to just like talk about all the people on top who are who don't quote unquote, deserve it. And I think like it again, like, like, what you're kind of saying is it's what I've learned and understood is as I've gotten older, it's so much more rewarding on my end to to just focus on the stuff I like the bands I like and, you know, if someone hears this, and they discover wood and wire this way, and they like it afterwards, you know, like, That's way more rewarding than, you know, an hour long rant about

Tony Kamel 45:24

convincing some guy that Luke brand sucks. Congratulations, you convinced one guy that Brian isn't any good. You know, it's, it's not worth our time, right? And it's so funny, like Terry Allen is a great example. Because guys, like you and me and so many of our friends. We just like we're obsessed with him because he's so fearless in his in his art, you know, he doesn't give a shit. If people like it or not, he doesn't give a shit. And it's clear because it is so out there. He's making it for himself, and hopes, you know, if other people enjoy it great. He's doing this thing. Because that's what he loves. And, and we have to understand that that's like an it's like an RTS, an old version of music, you know, it's, it's out there, you know, it's like, You can't expect everyone to love something like that, you know, like, Hey, man, you gotta listen to war as Dude, it's an incredible record. And they've never listened to a record in their life with any spoken word ever, you know? So it's like, wait a minute, this isn't a music record, what is this? You know, so, I'm not saying that they can't come around. But we also have to understand like, some people just don't, it's just like you said, they don't have the bandwidth to take in something like that, you know, and, and it's, it's cool that there are people out there that do. And, and I hope that and like I said, like, we play bluegrass music, and it's our version of it. And it's different. And it's definitely, it's definitely unique. And there are reasons why it's unique. But, you know, I kept I've tried for you, you know, like, it's this thing about control, you can't control, you can only control so much when I was trying to control more, I just didn't understand why a lot of these red dirt events or Texas country events would throw in a band like us to, to change it up a little bit. Not that everyone sounds the same or anything but but we would definitely sound way different than anybody. I really wanted to, I really liked a lot of those bands, and I wanted to like work with them and play shows with them. But a lot of their management and, and a lot of the people that put on a lot of those events, not all of them, but we just don't get invited to stuff like that. And I was kind of bummed about it. Because it's it's a it's a really cool, big, and sometimes really raucous group of music fans that really care about music, and having a good time, and they're dedicated, and they want to come out and enjoy the show. I wanted to tap into that. But and I, but I, you know, I couldn't convince people that that, you know, make the decisions that that they would be like, Well, you know, you guys are bluegrass like people, these these, they wouldn't, they're not going to enjoy it. And I don't think that they gave their fans enough credit, I think they would put like it a lot, you know, but but I can't, I kind of gave up, I kind of just was like, Well look, someone Someone wants us in that world. They'll they'll give us a call and we'll do it. And this isn't a rant about about them at all. But it's just another thing to, to let go of, you know, this sort of idea that you can't control all this stuff. And, and so anyway, that's sort of a sidebar there. But, but we put this new record out and I think I think it'll, it's a listenable record and I think people will like it. I mean, we make our records pretty loosely we everything we do is live you know and it's all played together and and any experimentation we do we do in the mixing process and it's it's it's all live stuff and the field is really good and I'm real proud of the songs. We recorded like 16 songs for this record, we put nine on it. Billy Ryder mandolin player contributed a lot more songs to this record than he has in the past so so I'm super proud of that what this records done and and and I hope it opens up more people to our music, you know, but if it doesn't, we're just gonna keep doing it anyway, so I guess it doesn't really matter. I

Thomas Mooney 49:21

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Unknown Speaker 50:18

Alright, that's

Thomas Mooney 50:18

it for Thomas Mooney, his cocktail minute. Let's get back to the show. Yeah, I've been trying to get back onto the record, but we're in the middle of that great.

Tony Kamel 50:29

Oh, no. Yeah, I love this. It gets boring talking about the same shit every time anyway, you know what I mean? So what was a great conversation? What

Thomas Mooney 50:37

I wanted to actually touch back on is the you guys are I think like, there's the for most bands. It's the the the guy singing the songs is the the chief. lyricist, right. He's the one writing the songs, and everyone else there is catering towards those songs, you guys are a little bit more, there's some more democracy in where a lot of these songs come from. Songs come from, from all of y'all, y'all are all contributing to the, to the process. And you mentioned Billy right and a bunch of stuff here. What's What is that like, as far as like, the process of, you've got something Billy's got something you guys are bringing them together? What's the process of like showing the other people in the band, The these new ideas and as far as like, then making them from a, just a song that that say, you know, just an acoustic song, let's just say for you on the acoustic guitar to be in a wooden wire song.

Tony Kamel 51:47

Yeah, man. Fortunately, for us, it's it's pretty natural, we, we all come from different musical backgrounds, and different inspirations outside of bluegrass. And but the Bluegrass stuff that we've learned is sort of song forms and ways to jam together and, and ways to structure jams and stuff like that has really helped in our collaboration. So we all have different styles. And one of the really important things that lends itself to a situation like that, or someone brings a new song is that nobody tells anybody what to play, we just trust each other's own styles. And in that process, you know, so we'll start playing the song. And it's rare that I'll be like, hey, to Billy and Trevor, hey, I want you guys to play this line of notes. They come up with a lot of that stuff. So it's a true democracy. And there's a lot of trust involved. Maybe I don't have the whole song done. Maybe I just have a verse in the chorus, we'll just sing it over and over until we kind of feel it out. You know, there's all different kinds of ways but the main thing is that we all trust, where we are our own musical styles as individuals, and that is what ends up being our collective sound. And it's just worked out really beautifully for us. You know, there's not really a bandleader we all the leaders of our own part of the song, if I wrote it, and, you know, all the songs I wrote, you know, I wrote the lyric. Sure, but I mean, everybody contributed to the arrangements and a lot of the melodic lines that the instrumentalists play we, that they were written by whoever played them, you know, and, and, you know, they're all of our songs that we bring are open to interpretation. And the lyrics as well are our Hey, man, try this, or how do what do you think of this line? You know, anything can be changed by anybody. And, you know, I mean, we just kind of see how it goes. But fortunately for us, it's just, it's really natural. But the main thing is that we trust each other's styles. You know, we trust each other stylistically for it, to work out. That's not to say we can't, hey, I'm not crazy about that, or something like that. But but for the most part, it's absolutely trust.

Thomas Mooney 54:03

Yeah. Yeah. You know, you mentioned you guys went in with 16 songs recorded 16. what's the what's what is that process of honing in on on what the record is, versus a collection of 16? songs?

Tony Kamel 54:20

Yeah, good question. And that changes, you know, for us this time. You know, I think there was several on there that we knew we wanted to go. But I think we also wanted to keep it around 40 minutes. So we all just took some time to listen to everything. came up with the bet, but we each thought was the best 40 minutes or the most cohesive, 40 minutes. Between us three and our co producer and engineer. We came up with four or five different versions. And it could be steered. I mean, stylistically, we could have made three different records. You know, there'll be crossover on some of the songs, but could have felt differently. But it was just a process of voting and talking and arguing a little bit and voting and talking and arguing and civilly, you know, like people do. And yeah. And it kind of came up with what we thought was the coolest 41 minutes or whatever. And then we also kind of harken back to the old days, some of our favorite records are like, 30 minutes long, you know, so lyrically and singing songs. We were pretty, we had a really strong 30 minutes, you know, 32 minutes. That could have been a cool short. Yeah, full record. But, you know, maybe by today's standards, people expect a little longer. But really, if you look back at a lot of those old Willie Nelson records, just about anything, it redheaded stranger is like 32 minutes long, right? Yeah, and, and so in my one of my favorite psychedelic rock albums, for example, His apostrophe is 31 minutes long, and it feels like it's an hour long, because it's so cool. But anyways, so we really had a record of these weeks. And then then we had this tune clamp shoe, which is a nine minute instrumental song. Not necessarily for everybody's bad, you know. But we recorded that song for fun. Like, we were just in the studio, it's a song that Billy wrote, and we were just jamming on it, we recorded it. And, and the vibe, that's what that's what you hear is just us playing it without even really the intention of using it. So we kind of felt like, as we were deciding what to go on, and we kind of thought it'd be fun, we kind of had this cool. Some eights, eight songs that made up a little over half an hour music and some records that long, we almost had a complete record there, then, we could have added some songs that were really cool and good recordings, but they might not have felt like they belonged. And then we decided, well, let's just throw this epic instrumental in there, and the people who like that kind of stuff will really like it, and the people that don't, we'll move on to the next record or something, you know, so, and it's also sort of goes back to the psychedelic side, we all have amongst ourselves, we all like, you know, like everybody does the old psychedelic rock records or something, I don't know. But they took a lot of risks back then, even though they were all the records were going onto vinyl. And it really, they really and truly, were only limited to 42 minutes at the most unless they wanted to potentially compromise the sonic quality of the record. There are certainly exceptions to that rule. But that was a big factor and people making those old records, but it didn't stop them from taking risks, and extending some of their jams, throwing in a tune that might be a little longer, you know, they just wanted to make the coolest thing. And back then there weren't CDs, they weren't tracking numbers necessarily, which is side A and Side B and most records were between this 30 and 40 minutes long. And it was just a journey you took so you aren't worried about the number of tracks and stuff like that. It was just, it was just what was the coolest group of you What was the coolest journey you were gonna send people on. So I think collectively through a series of voting and discussions. That's kind of where we sort of what we sort of leaned on and ended up with, and as a result, we'd have some extra songs now we can potentially release we recorded a Todd Snyder song that I think turned out pretty cool, but didn't quite fit. We may just release that as a single one day because people love Todd Snyder, as they should, you know, and right. And, you know, there's so many sides, but I mean, honestly, like, several of the songs we cut were my songs. But we're a band, you know, I mean, this is a band, this is a Tony Campbell, and wouldn't wire like, I was more open to I was more like, Hey, we should cut these songs. I think this group, the added they don't quite fit, you know. And so, I mean, it's a democracy for sure. And some of the conversations can be difficult, but it's part of the it's part of the pain you go through that makes it all worth it. And we've we've went through that on the last record too. And it's a different vibe on the last record. And it paid off, you know, it worked out and and hopefully for this one, it pays off as well.

Thomas Mooney 59:19

Yeah, you know, there's, there's like three different directions I want to go but I'm trying to figure out which one I should say first one I like I think a lot of times when a record ends, you know bands trying to end it on a solemn or poignant note. But there's these records that I can't think of any off the top of my head but they're out there where they do in on a on like a an instrumental like it's like this where it is a little bit longer and what I've always thought and this may never have been the intention for a lot of these bands but what I always like or or sometimes these instrumental break Tappan, mid record. Regardless, though, I think like, a lot of times what I like about those is there for me like a moment to step back and kind of think about what was played beforehand. Like, you know what I mean, before you move on to the next record, or whatever the case is, or the next batch of songs. And I think as far as like a listener goes, I think that's sometimes a good thing. It's kind of like a, I don't want to say a palate cleanser, but like, kind of serves that same little like, Hey, now, like, it's time for you to just sit there and listen to this, this music while thinking about the other songs as well. And think about, like, what the record is, you know what I mean? I think that's these, maybe, like I said, unintentional moments that that help people process, what they've just listened to. So sure, sure. And,

Tony Kamel 1:01:03

and, you know, and also just for us, and for what we've, we do as a band, it's part of our show as part of our live show to have some some jam sessions. And we're not we don't go off for you know, long, long periods of time several times to set like a lot of jam grass, or jam bands do. But it is part of our show is showcasing some of our love for jamming with each other. And, and that that's kind of why we wanted that went on there, too. And, yeah, and, you know, I fought for it, we all did, it was it was a fun, I thought it was a really fun way to end the record. And I thought, you know, man, I almost want to put this on there at the end, because I think some people might not like it now. It's like, I like it. So let's do it. It's okay. It's weird to risk. Let's just take it.

Thomas Mooney 1:01:52

Yeah. You know, and also, like, you mentioned how a lot of these records that we we've grown to love that are from a time that were the the main thing that you bought was vinyl, I think that obviously, for a long stretch of time, whenever vinyl was not in the style was not the main format. You know, it did change the way bands made records, as far as what a record was, how a record was put together, the tracklist and all that stuff. But since vinyl is is has has this Renaissance period right now, I think what what's really interesting is seeing how some bands are, again, being influenced by that format. And think about how a record is. Let's keep it in that, that, that, I guess the, the, the right amount of time and like think about the instead of tracklisting, one through nine thinking about it side a side B, I think that's really an interesting thing that a lot of bands, from this time have not necessarily had to think about until now.

Tony Kamel 1:03:02

That's exactly right. And it's good thing. In my opinion, it's a great thing, because, you know, I mean, that's the right amount of time. That's the you can send people on a really nice, concise journey. I mean, yeah, there are really bad ass records out there, double records that are long, and cool, you know, but, but for the most part, it's like, man, I personally want to hear the strongest stuff you've got in 40 minutes, or less, maybe just over 40 and I can listen to it in one sitting. And that is enough for me, that's that's just enough for me to digest well, and really let it sink in. It's like cool, I love it. Now I can listen to it again, without having to block off an hour and a half or two hours or whatever, you know. So and I think that and I agree with you completely the resurgence of vinyl has added that new layer of how are we going to form a formatting this the way your record is going to be made? And I think that's definitely good. And it you know, you got the songs and it can be difficult conversation amongst musicians, producers or whoever's working on getting you know, cutting songs off a record that can be a difficult decision to make but it's worth it if it's going to make it the most solid group of songs and and having that limitation I think will only help in the future.

Thomas Mooney 1:04:27

Yeah, you know, it's it's, it's a little bit of this like weird concept that I feel is that sometimes when you you set up a box you set up parameters of what something is it makes you be more creative versus more like a you know like the whole like you're thinking to think outside the box sometimes you set up those parameters of a box if that makes sense. It works all the way around and and i think that like working within the the parameters of four minutes side a side B, and all of that kind of stuff, it can help be more creative. And it can make you just think of about about your own art in a different way. So I think it's all like, like I said, I think it's a it's a good thing. So,

Tony Kamel 1:05:17

yeah, it's, it makes you create a complete package, as opposed to the temptation of just shoving as many songs as you can on there. You know, so,

Thomas Mooney 1:05:26

yeah, you know, one of the things I wanted to bring up too, was you, you guys have done some stuff with Bruce Robison, the next wall? What is, uh, what is that, like, what's when you're a band, and you're going over there and, and working on something with him being invited over there, to, to create something? What is that like, for you guys going into a setting like that?

Tony Kamel 1:05:55

It's really cool. And Bruce has been great. And, you know, we all admire Bruce a lot. But he puts you at ease right away, you know, I mean, he's, he's super fun to work with the studio, as you know, it's really neat. It's totally analog, there's not a single computer in there. He's got some really cool equipment, and some great engineers helping him around it. So as far as like working with Bruce, the sort of, you know, we were never necessarily enamored with him. Because he put us at ease so quickly, you know, and then it just became like, We're buddies and working on music together. So that's one of the great parts about it. He's, he's a humble guy. He's a humble guy that's really passionate about bringing back some of these things we're talking about when it comes to vinyl, just these old school ways of making kick ass records. And we related to him on that right away. So, you know, we felt like equals from the beginning. And, and that's what's really cool about working out there. And, you know, he's a, he's a good producer, and he knows what to do. You know, in our case, we're a band, we have stuff worked out amongst ourselves. So his job as a producer, when he's when we're doing something out there, we did a song, we've got a few songs out there with his just to be like, hey, it was great. You know, he doesn't change the arrangements that much he just kind of trust that we all work really well together. And we've been out there as Seidman before working with other artists and he takes a much stronger role and in formulating the song and telling people that he they might should play and stuff like that. So he's, he's, he's also a new producer. He's still learning how to be a producer at the same time. And, and I think he's headed down a really cool path for making some really great records. He's made some he's made a great Bruce and Kelly record out there. James Stanley's record that came out of there was really neat. He's also doing some management stuff for Charlie Crockett. And he's a great guy to work with. And I've had the fortunate pleasure of going out there just on my own to write with him some, which is a really neat experience. And, you know, I have imposter syndrome is bad as anybody, you know, I then see plenty of situations where I'm like, man, I don't know why I'm here. You know, yeah, I feel like, I, they're gonna figure me out so fast, you know, but I sit down and, and Bruce is like, really easy going about it all. And he's honest about his opinions on certain things. And so I know, he's not just yanking my chain when he likes something, which I think is really important. And I don't do a lot of CO writing, but I've been doing some with him. And I think it's great. And I do a lot of CO writing with Billy nowadays, our mandolin player, he hasn't done a lot of CO writing. So that's a really cool relationship, as well. And but but in any case, working out at the bunker with Bruce is a, it's a lot of fun. And, and, you know, it almost feels like he hasn't done any of the stuff that he has, you know what I mean? Like he puts you at ease right away. And you kind of forget that he wrote the songs and he's done this stuff, which is a good thing. It's a good thing puts people at ease really quickly.

Thomas Mooney 1:09:17

Yeah, you know, like what I think like the the thing that you can kind of see especially in the the next waltz series as far as these singles and these you know, these just, I don't necessarily want to call them one off sessions, but in a lot of ways, you know, you're working with a lot of different bands over over the year. And putting out these these singles in these videos out and I think Luckily, it's a it's a diverse mix, but you kind of feel that common thread between them as far as, you know, the good songs, but also just the, the easy vibes. It kind of feels like when you watch these videos, it's like oh yeah, this is why pants pulled Because it's fun, and it's just like, the environment is just a right setting.

Tony Kamel 1:10:08

Yeah, and sometimes those sessions, not Bruce's session specifically. But sometimes when you throw together, people for something like that doesn't always go well, you know what I mean? Sometimes it's awkward, and the band's having a hard time grooving, if you don't play together often, but, but the vibe in that place is that that's what's great about that, that spot and what Bruce is doing is that it's vibes first. He's such a vibey guy. He's like, it's got to be good vibes, you know, it's all about the vibe. And he means that on a record standpoint, and that's, that's, that's absolutely right, you know, making records for me, my favorite records have weird stuff in them, you know, had mistakes in them have. There's just vibes that the vibes of the record are above the perfection of the recording, you know what I mean? So that's something he's trying to accomplish there. We did a, we did a woodshed sessions, Volume Two, which is us playing other songs. In this case, we're sort of leaning heavily on john Harper Woods repertoire. Inspired by that, we did a tune by john Hartford called tall buildings, which is beautiful song. And we've recorded all that out at the bunker. And at the end of the song, okay, so Bruce just tried this thing out, he's got a 16 track, or 32. I don't know how many, but he armed all the tracks. So he put all of us we were just standing around mics, you know, that's how you do it. That's how we do it there. He put all of us on every single track, he armed every single track of the tape. So how normally works is you just put one or two tracks on each person. And they get along to tape and you leave the other tracks open for overdubbing if you want. In this case, he armed all 16 or 32, or whatever it is, I don't know how many he's got, but he armed them all. So the track feels really full. And the mics are pulling a lot of data. At the end of the song, you can hear these birds chirping outside. And it just kind of like sounds kind of perfect. And you have to kind of listen to it, but but my favorite stuff. Or when things like that happen, you just leave it in or someone you know, says something at the end of the song. And we just leave it in, we didn't do any of that we didn't leave anything in on this last record, but we were we were doing everything live and sort of, you know, on the fly, but in any case, like that's the kind of place that that Bruce's studio is. And that's the kind of guy he is to where he's just really trying to bring back good vibes and good sounds are records.

Thomas Mooney 1:12:45

Yeah, you know, like, that's, that's something actually I talked with Coulter about with with his last record is because he leaves some some intro and outro kind of bookings some songs with, you know, just then talking her then like the stuff that you you would typically cut off. And, you know, that was something that we talked about was like, that just sets the the mood for a record that helps like create a vibe of like, sometimes I think like you can think of a band being super, like way over serious and it's like this kind of maybe put some some listeners at ease, you know, and sure, because obviously like, you know, there's plenty of songwriters who have written serious sad songs. And those songs are serious. But that person isn't, you know, full on, ready to to off themselves, or you know what I mean? They're not just the worst hang, you know, they're, they're fun. And I think like all that I love and I do love finding those little things too as far as like, things that you have to listen for. And then you got to go like that. I

Unknown Speaker 1:13:56

just did I

Thomas Mooney 1:13:57

hear that like,

Tony Kamel 1:13:59

culture records. Awesome. That studio yellow doxy is great, great studio. And Adam, the the owner and the engineer there is fantastic and and what was cool about the way they did things real open too. And, and the bleed there's this thing of, you know, you probably know what bleed is it's, you know, when in a lot of, I don't know, really heavily produced records, there's no bleed between the instruments. So everything's done on their own. If even if people are playing all at the same time, they might be all in isolation booths. And the way we like to do it and the way they did it on Coulter's record, too, is like, you let everyone you let like the sounds of the room, reverberate throughout the room so that, you know, you hear other instruments come through Coulter's mic or the GoPro mic or something like that, or, you know what I mean? So, and those are the kinds of things that a lot of people weren't doing for a long time. I think that there there's more of a push for, for that kind of thing. Now, there's sort of this angle, I don't know people like to do things in analog more and more which is great and use tape machines but in any case that's that's something they did on Yellow Dog there that that I think turned out really nice and was definitely the way to go and and that's something we tried to do as well if his own we do ours in Dripping Springs and but I really feel like that's an important thing. And you're absolutely right about it setting the listener at ease because it humanizes us. Yeah, it humanizes the people they're listening to is just guys or men or women who are just trying to figure this shit out like you are, you know, so I think Adam told me like there was like a screen door on I haven't had to listen to it again but someone that opened a door during one of Coltrane songs I have to look at the text or whatever Yeah, there is and they just left it in. That's awesome. That's a great way to do it. You know and and you have laughs sometimes you have like a weird take and you laugh at the end or you say something weird. You know, when you're checking the mics you say stuff for the engineer and you save weird stuff and sometimes those are fun things to throw in and have fun with Yeah,

Thomas Mooney 1:16:14

you know I brought up that the screen door to the culture and and what's Of course like the screen door that's that's part of the that humanizes the song but also in the artists but what I found real funny was in the liner notes on that song gets like vocals, acoustic guitar, Coulter wall and then screen door opening screen door play or like I think it's like creaky screen door play. Like burglar I

love that and that's just

like, just like a little you know, little easter egg kind of things and going back to the bleed though, like that's what creates such a warmth and a texture. Yeah, these records that that I feel like when it's there sometimes you can't really pinpoint like, I think like maybe the the common listener, maybe doesn't you can't pinpoint what that is what that is. That makes it like that but that's what it is. That's why a lot of people like those kind of records is that warmth in that just a little bit of that that hazy texture I don't necessarily even want to call it hazy but you get what I'm saying like it's

Tony Kamel 1:17:22

Yeah, it sets it apart sets it apart from the plastic bullshit that's out there. And and you know, man, I've made records where we were all isolated and everything's perfect and lined up and that's something to be said for that but but as a more experienced musician now it's like that's the only way I want to do it. And and at least for stuff that I'm My name is I mean I've played on people's records you know where I just show up they're not even there that's no big deal. I'm not hating on that but for me and my part my my creative side needs to needs to have that because you're right it's it creates something that you can't hit the average listener couldn't like say this is what this is, but it creates that vibe and that flavor that they couldn't they'll most people can pinpoint it just feels good and sounds good.

Thomas Mooney 1:18:10

Yeah, you know on this this last record here that you guys did was you know you mentioned you guys recorded it in Dripping Springs you guys are all like Austin based like what what is it like recording out there where a you're you know it's it's a little bit out of town and you can get away but also have like maybe the the comforts of home Do you guys try and like still get it in a in a setting where it's not necessarily like a location record that you guys went off and recorded in across the country or something like that but do try and at least I guess maybe set it up that way for y'all are like what what is what is it like going out and recording the record?

Tony Kamel 1:18:54

Actually the opposite we we really didn't want to go to nab we put our first few records in Nashville we did them in Nashville and that was great. We worked for the great guy wasn't some big fancy studio, you know, it was just a good vibe. dude named Eric. He was awesome. But we didn't want to go back to Nashville. We just really figured and we have nothing against Nashville but we just like figured it logistically and also just for us like we live here and there's plenty of great Studios here for what we do. We could do it a lot of different places and the zone is in Dripping Springs. I live in Dripping Springs Billy lives in Wimberley. Dominic lives in Austin, big travelers and same market so we're all you know, around the Austin area within 30 miles or so. Right? But for us, we didn't do it all at once we did it. We work on the songs through rehearsals and woodshed sessions just really get them down. We test a lot of them out on stage. Then when we went to the studio was just let's play the song. We just played we adjust little things here and there but like it was a matter of getting a good take And working on that, you know, and so we would go intermittently, we did some last January, or January 2019, I guess. And we did some in the, after the long tour in the fall. And then we did some in the early part of 2020. And it was just like, when we were ready, we'd go in and do it. So there was no pressure. And I think for us as a band, that's another important part is, is doing this stuff when we're ready. And it saves the studio time and, and pat Mansky, the CO producer on this one, and the engineer, there's awesome, and they have really cool stuff. And that leaves us room to experiment with sounds. So we're not experimented too much with our song forms we're kind of done with, right. So we, we use some really cool old analog equipment, we went into the tape machine, we use old analog delays and like boxes, you know, that were built in the 70s. The not like a delay pedal or a computer plugin, I don't know, I worked as a billion pad. And we put like, we experiment with putting the mandolin through a old Fender Twin to get in and then put the Fender Twin in a booth by itself as sort of a reverb chamber, or a tremolo change chamber. And we sometimes we'd run the room mic through the fender to enter, Trevor's bent banjo mic through the Fender Twin just to see what it sounded like. and experiment with stuff like that. So being having a studio at home, where we can go when we're ready, it frees us up of any pressure any worry about losing time, it gives us gives us the freedom to experiment with stuff like that, or experiment with stuff, put sounds and interesting ways of setting the record apart sonically.

Thomas Mooney 1:21:44

Yeah, a little bit of a little bit more luxury versus like, Hey, we're flying in. And we've got to get this done by the end of the week, you know?

Tony Kamel 1:21:53

Yeah, yeah. And that students every bit is good or not better than just about anywhere. I've worked in Nashville, I don't like working in those big fancy, high dollar studios. There's no reason for me anymore. I mean, I shouldn't say that I that's, that's a blanket statement. But it's just not totally necessary. You know, so for anyone out there that's listening, that wants to make a record, you can make a great record, and a great studio without going far away and spending tons and tons and tons of money. You know, and by the way, the zone is a high is some of the finest equipment you can get. And I don't want to set it down as as like a mid grade studio, Robert okene works out there very well. He hovered all kinds of guys, Midland has been out there some who's, you know, there is Nash, there's like the most, I don't know how I would describe Midland sound, but the place is capable of doing much more of a poppy kind of thing and much more of a controlled kind of thing. But it also has, you know, it's just a really awesome studio that has all kinds of capabilities. And some of my favorite records have been made out there. Wayne Hancock works out there. I mean, it's a great place.

Thomas Mooney 1:23:00

Yeah, you know, it's one of those things where every, every kind of record can be a great record, and every kind of record can be a bad record as far as the setting goes and right, you know, like, it's those, those records that you go off to record at you know, I obviously, like a, a destination record. A great setting is you know, outside of El Paso at Sonic Ranch, that's, you know, like a really great kind of destination place. And that can

Tony Kamel 1:23:29

check that place out, man. I've heard so much about it. And I really love El Paso anyway, continue. Yeah,

Thomas Mooney 1:23:36

but like, also, you know, it. It's, you can make really fucking cool records in your backyard, too. You know that? Absolutely. So like, it's, again, like everything can be great. And every record can be. It's just the time and place for everybody, you know, like what works for so?

Tony Kamel 1:23:54

Yeah, there's a really cool record that came out and you may not have heard, I mean, you have all kinds of what I like and, and I just started listening to your podcast. Recently, frankly, I'm sorry, I should have been listened to this whole time. But what I like about your podcast, you have all kinds of different artists on there, you know, you really run the gamut and that's really cool. There's you may not I don't know if you've heard of this guy, halen Morrison. He's a he plays with this band called Western centuries. And he's a Northwest guy. He's from New Mexico, but he does work with this guy, Eli Weston in the Northwest. So he's not a Texas guy, but he made this record in this church in New Mexico. It's just him and he there's a bunch of like, there's an Irish feel to it. You may not dig it, but it's it's it's there's a bunch of acapella songs, and his writing is amazing. And it but it's just him and it's like, it's really one of the coolest records I've heard in a while and it's only on Bandcamp and I'll send it to you to check out but that's just to show you you can make like a special thing. You don't need a lot to do it. Yeah,

Thomas Mooney 1:24:59

yeah. Yeah, it's one. It's one of those things where like, we we have the luxury of living in 2020, where you can make a really, it may not be the tech again, it may not be technically the most perfect record, but you can make a really cool record in your bedroom if you really put in the hard work and You're damn

Tony Kamel 1:25:18

right. You didn't really care. So you really can. Yeah. James stylee. Again, I've mentioned a minute several times he put out a crazy like Terry Allen esque record called man from the mountain I think is what it's called earlier this year and is is an Julianne McConkey, who's his girlfriend's saying on it. She's fantastic. Her new records awesome, too. Anyway, he did that in like a night and I've listened at like, 50 times. It's amazing. So anyway, you're absolutely he did he literally did it in his bedroom, and it's awesome.

Thomas Mooney 1:25:50

Yeah. Juliet, she she won the blue light singer songwriter competition last year, and it was one of those things where right when you first heard her play, it was like, I hate to like say this, but it's one of those things where you heard her play, and you go, Oh, she's gonna win this.

Tony Kamel 1:26:06

Awesome. Like everyone knows. She

deserves it. She's amazing. And I love her. Sort of. I really like her voice. You know, it's like that really sort of light? whispery, I don't know how to put it. floaty voice like she has and she's she's really got a nice voice. You should check out that man from the mound thing. That's the first time I heard her sing. I was like, holy shit. You know, I texted James is like, dude, she stole the show, bro. Sorry.

Thomas Mooney 1:26:38

It's really there's a crispness to it. It's like, yeah, that that light mountainair kind of crystal clear kind of cool cleanness to it and then it's just really put you at ease and I agree. So I agree. Yeah, man, you know, it's been really great talking to you today.

Tony Kamel 1:26:59

Yeah, enjoy the hell.

Thomas Mooney 1:27:02

Okay, that does it for this one. Y'all go check out the newest album from wooden wire. It's called no matter where it goes from here. Check out our partners over at Desert door and the blue light live. Alright, I'll see y'all next week for more new slide.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai