120: Brennen Leigh
In this episode of New Slang, I’m joined by singer-songwriter Brennen Leigh. At the end of this week (Friday, September 18), Leigh released Prairie Love Letter, a worthy ode to her roots and childhood home, the rural open plains of Western Minnesota and Eastern North Dakota. Part Will Cather and part Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska, Prairie Love Letter has an earnest pioneering spirit--a balanced blend of tough and tender. Songs like "I Love the Lonesome Prairie," "The John Deere H," and "There's a Yellow Cedar Waxwing on the Juneberry Bush" are soaked with family tradition and lore. They're for dinner tables in your grandmother's kitchen or while huddling around wood-burning stoves. You get a sense of time and place in songs like these. Other songs like "Prairie Funeral" and "Billy and Beau," while most certainly given the same warm touch from Leigh and most certainly are a valuable piece of Prairie Love Letter, they transcend time and place. They're beautiful, and somewhat bittersweet, love stories that feel no boundaries. Still, Leigh doesn't just capture the nostalgic glow of home on Prairie Love Letter. "You Ain't Laying No Pipeline" and "You've Never Been To North Dakota" are necessary examinations and filled with hard truths. There's struggle and strife--and again, that enduring pioneer spirit.
During this interview, Leigh and I talk about the specific traditions, roots, and inspirations nestled within Prairie Love Letter, anecdotes from home, the stories behind some of the album's most poignant songs, her songwriting routines, and stories about Guy Clark.
This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol and The Blue Light Live.
Interview Transcript
Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.
Thomas Mooney 0:01
Welcome to New slang. I'm your host music journalist Thomas Mooney. And this is Episode 120, where I'm joined by singer songwriter Brennan Lee. I caught up with Brennan just last week to talk about her new album, prairie love letter, which that new album is out at the end of this week, Friday, September 18. Peri love letter is exactly that. It's a love letter to Brennan's roots family and the rural open plains where she was raised, I said during this interview, but I just really love when an artist does an album like this, obviously, typically, you're so used to where you grew up, that all the beauty is just kind of common and routine by the time you're 18. And if you're like the average 18 year old, you just kind of determined to get away from there as soon as you can. And it's really only then whenever you've gotten just far enough away, that you can see the beauty of like your little hometown, you understand and realize why it's so special. And most of the time for songwriters and artists. When they look back, they realize that there's something worth writing about. That's an album like flatlands by Ryan Colwell. Really like all of the turnpike troubadour albums, you get that a lot in albums and songs by Jason is Coulter wall, Kelsey Walden in No, you know, I could really just go on forever, but you get the point. And that's exactly what Brennan does here with prairie love letter. It's western Minnesota. It's eastern North Dakota. It's just like her little pocket of land, those open plains farmland, and it's an authentic examination. Brennan gets all the details, right. It's very specific. That's all very important, and it adds so much value.
But if you've been listening to or reading anything I've written in these past few years, you will know that I'm one of these people who really believes that while authenticity is nice and great, and really kind of an essential part of this album. What's really key is how genuine a songwriter is. And that's really where Brennan shines brightest. She handles the songs in these stores with such delicacy. She's careful and loving, and her songwriting and her performance. They're warm and earnest. So much so that even if you relate to very little of the specifics, if they don't really necessarily remind you of your childhood home, or where you were raised, you're going to be aware of that hearty genuineness that Brennan brings with this album. I've described as probably love letter as a mix of Willa catheter and Bruce Springsteen's in Nebraska, it's plainspoken in nature and you feel that pioneering spirit in these songs. Today's presenting sponsor is desert door, Texas SoTL. If you know anything about me, it's probably that I'm from the heart of West Texas and absolutely love everything about West Texas. And that's really why I love desert door so much. You may be asking yourself what exactly SoTL is, well, it's a premium spirit that similar to a tequila or a Moscow, but for my money, it's a little bit more refined and smooth. There's a sweetness and faint hints of vanilla and citrus and it's also as versatile as your garden variety vodka. At its core desert door is authentically West Texas, they go out and harvest Soto plants from the wild and bring them back to their distillery over in driftwood, Texas. So next time you're at your local liquor store, get a bottle of desert door. For more info, check this episode's show notes. If this is your first time listening to new slang, I strongly suggest hitting that subscribe link. If you just did, I'm giving you a virtual High Five right now. New slang is over on iTunes, Spotify, Google podcast, Stitcher, radio, and basically any and everywhere you listen to podcasts. Go check out the new slang merch store. Grab a koozie some stickers, buttons and magnets. Any bit helps. I'll throw a link into the show notes. And if you're into playlist, go check out Tom mooneyes cup of coffee and the neon Eon playlist over on Spotify. The neon Eon is for all your nostalgic 90s country needs, which there's going to be more neon Eon related stuff coming your way pretty soon. And then Tom mooneyes cup of coffee is a regularly updated mix of new Americana and country music. It's also a really great hint who I have coming up on the podcast. So yeah, go follow those. Alright, let's get on to the interview. Here is Brennan Lee,
Brennen Leigh 4:48
Texas just like we hang you know, just go I mean I'm part text and I didn't grow up there but like I spent 15 years there and You know, the catching up thing. It's like important are you from? Are you from Lubbock? I'm originally from you grew up there. Well, I've
Thomas Mooney 5:08
lived here probably 1012 years now. I grew up down further south and Fort Stockton. But I basically lived in West Texas my entire life. So
Brennen Leigh 5:22
you have a lovely accent since I moved away. I've really come to appreciate the Texas accent, all the difference.
Thomas Mooney 5:30
We'll see. It's always weird because I feel like in comparison to a lot of Texans, I don't have like an accent at all, but you don't yours is very soft. But the West Texas is my favorite. Yeah, I love just west Texas, in general, like it's just been, I've always had like a little bit of a love hate relationship with it, not appreciating it going up. You know,
Brennen Leigh 5:57
it's just prettier from there.
Thomas Mooney 5:58
Yeah. And let's, let's like really probably, like, the best jumping point into this record for you is that, you know, this, obviously, is a love letter back home for you. It feels like you've these, these feelings, this the sound has always been there for you this that influence but obviously, this is a record about being from this area, the prairie, if you will. What, why, why now? And like, Why, what what spurred on this, this project?
Brennen Leigh 6:35
Well, the songs had come together, sort of organically. Over the course of years, I moved away from Minnesota when I was 19. And when you're 19, you just want to get the hell out, you know. But I always always had a magic for it or a feeling of that the prairie was magic, and that it was nostalgic, and that it was beautiful. And we have this interesting culture up there that isn't really often written about, I mean, the only people I can really think of in modern pop culture that have looked at this area and made it a part of their art would be the people or like the sardo TV show. Or the movie farto or, you know, Garrison Keillor Prairie Home Companion. And both of those entities do a very good job. They really grabbed the culture and do a good job of portraying it. But for me, there was a magic and a beauty that I saw that I want. I wanted other people to see. And it's just an interesting little enclave. And I didn't see how interesting it was until I moved away. And I've been gone and I've been homesick.
Thomas Mooney 7:59
Right? Yeah, it is. It's interesting, because I think for a lot of people that touchdown is Fargo and like, you know, like, obviously that's like a it has to be at least in party a character of of the people there. And obviously, like the Coen Brothers, you know, they did the same thing with with No Country for Old Men for where I'm from. Right. So it feels like they they are able to go in there and capture, like the essence of a people in a place and just do it right. But still like it's it's it's interesting to see like that as being like the touchstone for everyone outside of that bubble.
Brennen Leigh 8:42
Right. I was born in Fargo and my family. Some of my family lived in Fargo and I was I grew up in Morehead, which is right across the next town over. So you know, when you say Fargo, it kind of elicits a sort of joke reaction from people like oh, Fargo, you know, like is because of the funny accent. And I still live there when the movie came out. I think I was in junior high or high school and I remember everyone saying, Oh, we don't talk like that. You know, they were offended. But you know, it is a great movie in a great. I haven't watched the whole show but I am a fan of the show. But there's there is a character element. And I that's valid. Because it is there are some funny things about this. The culture, it's funny, there's a passive aggression. there's a there's a funny, there's a whole there's a wholesomeness, it's very real. And I think that comes from, you know, Puritanism mixed with Scandinavian culture that you know from 100 years ago and just living somewhere really cold and having to entertain yourself with accordion music or whatever. Whatever my my dad family and my mom's family did when they were younger. But I it's interesting you say the thing about No Country for Old Men because it's been years since I saw that movie, but I kind of know what you mean. Like they graze the surface, and they do a pretty good job, but it's not showing the whole culture. Right?
Thomas Mooney 10:23
Yeah. You know, like the I guess like probably I'm trying to think of like when I was attached to this, but I think it had to be like the movie Fargo. I think there may have been a bonus little vignette of a little mini doc or something about it. That came with a DVD or something. But it was talking about like that. I think what they called it as like the Minnesota nice, that passive aggressive kind of wholesomeness, but also like being like the nicest as possible, but also like, the the inconvenience, like showing that you've been
Brennen Leigh 11:05
Yeah. Being nice. Even if you don't want to. there's a there's a great you can watch it on YouTube. It's called How to Talk Minnesotan. And it's like 30 minutes long. It's from It's from 1990 or something. It's old. And it is spot on. It's so funny. The little things that we would say, like if someone offers you in Texas has the same. Texas has things like this. But in Minnesota, we would have this thing like, in I never knew this was a real thing. Like I never knew. I never noticed we did this until I saw this little film that if someone offers you a piece of pie, you want a piece of pie. Well, no, no, no, no, I'm good. I wouldn't want to trouble you. Are you sure? Well, no, no, I shouldn't I I have I'm pretty full from dinner. Oh, I'll just get it. I'm having a piece. Oh, okay. So you have to wait three, they have to offer it to you three times before you accept it. Yeah. That's, that's just a weird little cultural nuance that we would do? Or, you know, following someone out to the car when they're leaving. That kind of thing. Just little, little funny, cute things. You never know. You did?
Thomas Mooney 12:20
Yeah, it's like these little dances, right? These little traditions, right? These cultural the cultural norms that you just
Brennen Leigh 12:29
like Texas? Yeah. Like in Texas, I learned, you know, like, having to hug everyone. Oh, yes. Like, like, this is not something we did at family gatherings, my family. And we're my mom's side, Irish and on my dad's side region. And we, we hug but not like, as a ritual. So you know, you get to Thanksgiving dinner, and you hug every single person one at a time in Texas. And I mean, at least that's how it is and no family. But that was new to me. And then when you leave you hug everybody again. And if I like forgot to hug somebody, I would be snubbing them somehow.
Thomas Mooney 13:16
Would you? You've seen that in at bars and venues and stuff. Like it is so hard. Sometimes you'll try and leave a bar, and it takes you 30 minutes because you have to say goodbye to everyone. And I've never really been like a you know, a touchy like, hey, let's touch all the damn time like hugging it historically.
Brennen Leigh 13:37
Not now. Right? Yeah, especially
Thomas Mooney 13:39
now. And it just pulls me back to like this old Seinfeld episode of him just being like, I guess like Seinfeld just wanting to do like the wave? Like, why can't we just do that? Why can't Why do we have the wave? Yeah, like, that's a, that's a thing, right? Like, and like, he just, you feel guilted into though, like where I've tried to do the wave. Like, I'll see like, just wave to the four or five people there. And then it's like, one person reaches out their hand to give you like a hand or a handshake and, and pull you in for a hug. And then you just feel guilted into doing it for everyone.
Brennen Leigh 14:16
Yeah, I know. But it's, you know, there's a sweetness to that. And even in you know, even in Austin i when i when i was in Austin, I played there all the time and had a nice group of fans that come out and hear me and dance and what have you, but I would get kissed a lot. Like I you know, I'm a I'm a I'm a progressive, you know, feminist leaning woman. And I always noticed that these especially more, you know, older texts and men, they would always kiss me on the cheek. You know, and it's just, it's just the way that you know, you just have to accept it great gracefully because that's just that's just their way of Saying I care for you. Right. And it's their way of greeting. And his new different to me for sure, coming down from the Midwest, but appreciate it as sort of a thing of old Texas that we may not always have.
Thomas Mooney 15:14
Yeah, like the, it's what's so interesting I feel about when I was listening to this record, and is, it's I think it's so amazing whenever a songwriter is able to, like turn back home, and like, just collect all those songs about those things that you didn't think were, you know, amazing or important. And then show them off. And I feel like that has been something that all of our if you kind of like, go back and like start listening to some of your favorite records, or your favorite songwriters, they're all able to really do that they're able to show off their little slice of America. And you. I mean, like, the biggest probably example is Springsteen, right? This that entire Oh, yeah, he's great at that. Or like, Jason is will or, you know, guy Clark, they're able to show these little pockets of where they're from. And in a way, like, obviously, there's a little bit of that Roman, romanticizing it in the nostalgia mixed in. And also kind of like being a little bit more brutally honest about a place. And all those little elements mixed in I think, just make these little. That's what makes, I think, great music, great storytelling.
Brennen Leigh 16:36
Yeah. It's interesting, you say that, because I was talking to Ronnie crowl. About about this. And he's one of those people that's great at sort of contextualizing songs, and in his writing you, you feel like you're there that he just does, there's some magic that he just injects into his songs that you feel like you're there. And I remember him saying, you know, the greatest art has, has a sense of place, and gives people a sense of place. And it's the setting. I mean, setting is so much when it comes to any kind of writing, whether it's prose or, or poetry.
Thomas Mooney 17:19
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Brennen Leigh 18:58
So you're dead on with that. Because when I was this record was really coming together. And by the way, that's a compliment. Thank you. When this was coming together kind of full force I had just discovered And now I'd heard of her growing up. And it's funny to me that we never read, oh pioneers or any of her work when I was in school, because I was aware of her because she wrote about the prairie. But when this record was coming together, I had just, I just read my Antonia for the first time. And it's absolutely became my favorite book. And her her writing. Actually, I'm kind of getting chills talking about this. Her writing actually changed the way that I write songs. Yeah, because there's just this description, especially in the beginning of my Antonia I don't know if you've read that one. It's a great book, if you haven't. It's it's my favorite. book. So this boy is, it's in the late 1800s. And this boy, this 10 year old boy, his parents have died. And he lives in Virginia. And he's being sent out to Nebraska to live with his grandparents. And he's in this wagon. And he just looks up and is this description about how there was nothing but land. He had the feeling that the world was less behind that, that they'd gotten over the edge of the world and, and they were outside man's jurisdiction. And that was, that was actually the song outside the jurisdiction of man. That is the last song on my record was directly influenced by that scene. And then talking about how, looking out on the prairie and seeing the complete dome of heaven, the complete dome of heaven, no, nothing. And to me, that's just some people might get in that place and feel claustrophobic, but I just, there's nothing better to me than being able to stand up and look 100 miles and see nothing. That's just happened to me. So I'm sure you can relate. Being from West Texas. Yeah.
Thomas Mooney 21:16
I love that's, that's something I really liked, too. And I've always kind of people don't understand this. But yeah, I do love like just being out in the flatness. And there's like this. I don't know that. Like there's a little bit of comfort in that for me. I don't know why. Like down in Fort Stockton, it's super flat down there as well. And it's just, you know, muskie trees, or mesquite bushes, really not even trees, and you're just able to see forever. And I don't know, like, I've anytime I've gotten any, anytime I've traveled anywhere, like you just kind of feel out of place until you get to a place of where like, it just goes flat. And
Brennen Leigh 22:01
yeah, I'm the same. I'm the same. I mean, even beautiful places, like with beautiful mountains. I feel a little bit relieved when I can see this. Just that must be a thing about being from the plane.
Thomas Mooney 22:14
Yeah. And, you know, like, it's the going back to this, you know, the, the willock, Hathor kind of thing. I think like, what so much of, of what are like that kind of writing about these, obviously, like, the Pioneer kind of Pioneer meets the frontier, the were like that were land or like, we're, I guess, modern society at that time was building up right? Where you're right there on that edge or past the edge. It feels like that so much of that. The best way to describe all that kind of stuff is in that plain spoken kind of way, but also mixing in and what is probably like, my favorite part of listening to music and reading is those mixing in of like idioms and analogies and stuff like that. What do you feel like that's what you've you're at? Because I can I feel like I see a lot of that, in, in your writing is like that mix of like, just the plain spoken this of telling a story. But then obviously injecting these idioms or whatever the case expressions to help. I don't know. Tell the story better.
Brennen Leigh 23:34
Yeah. I mean, to me, like, this sounds corny to have people say, Well, I didn't, I didn't to you know, I didn't I didn't write this. I just got out of the way and let it write itself or something. I mean, it sounds it sounds corny, but like, I thought the best way to tell some of these stories was in the words and feelings of the people that I'm describing. Like, I mean, john deere, ah, then that's about my dad. And it's supposed to be from his point of view. And my dad is actually a really colorful storyteller. He uses these expressions that I'm really used to. But you don't really hear anyone say anymore a thing like oh, I give my right arm to to do and my dad always says that, hey, that person I'd give my right arm to do this or, you know, I love that expression. And I love the use of sort of common utilitarian farm things and a song. Like I love to put farm machinery and awkward farm equipment in a song. I just love the mechanics of these people getting together. Like I'm picturing you know, in a song funeral. You know, that's, that's a song about these people getting together to bury this, this old pioneer. And and it's no longer pioneer times. But this story kind of smells of Pioneer times because you can see when I tried to show how that cultures kind of stayed in people's blood, and the way that they make coffee and the way that they sing songs, and the way that they get together and put their snow boots in the hall and getting kind of emotional thinking about it, but like, you know, that's, that's what I grew up with, and just missing that so much. And that feeling of being it being cold outside and singing. I mean, when do we do that anymore? You know, get together and sing. And that's, that's what my family did was we sang? Yeah, the
Thomas Mooney 25:55
is I feel like, somewhat like, even though like the songs are from, you know, obviously a place so far from where I grew up, I feel like we there's a lot of connections between the two in this way of like, at least my perception is like, there's this mix of that old world, enter the New World, like these songs, in a lot of ways. You can feel them being from the early 1920s, or the 30s, or in the 80s, or now. But like, it all feels like there's that little touch of old worldliness. And I feel like when people would write about West Texas, they can tap into a same some of those same old, like, I guess, timelessness features. And I feel like you do that a whole lot on here.
Brennen Leigh 26:49
Well, yeah, I mean, I think you're right, because I was kind of thinking about more than one era with songs. I mean, the songs about the farm, you know, those, those are probably they sent around my stories from my dad, which are from the 50s 40s and 50s. And my grandmother, who was born in 1915, my other grandmother Born in 1925. And just kind of the, I thought a lot to when I was putting this together about how, you know, the Willa Cather a lot of her novels are on that hinge of like, right before, and right after the Industrial Revolution. So you had this, this way of farming in this way of living, that that existed up until a person in a certain year and then boom, you had steam, you know, you had trains, you had cars all of a sudden, and telephones and, and that was very different than I see a parallel with the world that I grew up in, you know, where we had TVs and it was comfortable. And we had automobiles and everything, but it my memories of being a young person are before the internet. Right? So like, you know, I graduated high school in 2002. And so I was in I was in junior high in high school in the 90s. I was in elementary school in the 80s. And there's that memory of like, it sounds funny now, but it was so simple. And then all of a sudden, boom, it was like 911. And things changed. And maybe that feeds into my mind a selja. But I just remember things being kind of old fashioned, like having to, you know, not answer the phone during dinner, and stopping by someone's house without calling that sort of thing. We also had this I don't know about you, but I mean, I don't know how close in age you and I are. But we, we had like, when I was in elementary school, there was kind of this obsession going around about the frontier, and like prairie days, like the Oregon Trail that was kind of drilled in. And, you know, our music class in schools, like a lady with a piano. Singing. So there was a very, to me in my little romantic mind. It was very old fashioned. And then it became very not old fashioned shortly after that.
Thomas Mooney 29:21
Right? Yeah, like the Yeah, like 911 I am pretty close to your age, too. I graduated in oh five. So obviously, like when 911 happened that is such a the world did change. Right? And I feel like that's like the that's like the the loss of innocence for most people right there. Right. Or growing up in a lot of ways and going to that pioneer thing. You know, it's one of the things I don't I never really appreciated. Most kids I think I grew up with didn't appreciate this either. It was more like oh, we get to be out of school. But like, in Fort Stockton, obviously, a fort being there, like we would have like fort days. And you'd go out there and they'd have, you know, all the stuff with the fort stuff and like old pine churned butter. Yeah, like stuff like that, right? And I always thought, like, Oh, this is like, for soccer is the lamest place on earth. And then kind of like, getting gather, I realized, Oh, you know, what, actually, the city and like, the people in the city are like trying, actually pretty hard to help keep some of the preserve some of this stuff, you know, preserve the fort, you know, like that's, for Davis also has a really great for it to that they've preserved, but, you know, a lot of those things are gone. And I especially saw that going to other little towns around fort Stockton, and trying to find like old touchstones of the past and then then just kind of not being there anymore, or just too far past the point of recognition. So I totally get what you're talking about.
Brennen Leigh 31:09
Yeah, there's, you know, we have to value those things and hand it to those people for keeping, keeping that going. Because their living history. You know, just having someone to verbally tell you a story is just so valuable as their kind of their kind of human wormholes. I don't know if you've ever heard that expression. But it's like, it's like a person that has a window to another era. Yeah. My grandmother, on my, on my dad's side, she would like say things in Norwegian. her, her parents were Norwegian. And like, when I was a kid, she would like say, these little expressions. And, you know, I just didn't think anything of it at the time. But that's gone now. And so, you know, who's gonna, just hanging on to that is trying to hang on to that, and also not being able to hold on to that. It's gone. That's like, there's a grief in that. And there's like a sadness in that. I tried to inject a little or could probably couldn't help but inject a little in the song.
Thomas Mooney 32:18
Yeah. Well, going back to the this long prairie funeral. There is very much that celebration, but it's obviously around a funeral. It is sad. And it is grief. And it's what it kind of reminded me of, I'm sure you're familiar with Bruce Robinson's my brother and me, because like, Oh, yeah, great song. There's like a verse in there about them playing the dog house bass and like, nobody sings low and sweet, like my brother and me. And that I feel like there's like that. There's those you guys tapped into the same thing, the same traditions. And even though I guess like, Bruce is German, but you get the point of what I'm saying here.
Brennen Leigh 33:08
Yeah. I mean, we, it's also funny because, like, we we grew up with country music. But it was like Merle Haggard flattens grubs. That kind of same as Southern music. But that was, you know, that was our music. But it wasn't like a part of the culture in Minnesota, as much as it would be like in Texas. So my family was kind of unique in that way. But there is kind of a, I wish, I wish if I could go back in time, I'd give anything to be one of the dances that my grandfather played. He played the four string, tenor banjo, and apparently saying, well, we never met. But they would play barn dances. And it was not. I think they played songs like kind of popular songs of the day. Good night, Irene. And songs like that. And probably some, I think they probably had an accordion player. They probably played some Norwegian pocus, German pokers you know, just just to experience that would have been so cool. But I can only I can only imagine and hear the remnants of it now.
Thomas Mooney 34:22
Yeah, yeah. I'm obviously like, the the German influence on Texas is so if you're not aware, like it's right there. Even if you don't feel like you are listening to polka music every day or something like that.
Brennen Leigh 34:37
It's there. But yeah,
Thomas Mooney 34:38
it's very much there. And I feel like the more you become aware the more you see it, I was gonna ask if there was like that kind of that polka, the accordion. The that aspect of growing up there was if that was a major cultural norm I guess.
Brennen Leigh 34:56
I remember being at wedding and They're being Polka. Like there was the obligatory polka at every wedding. But I don't know where the where the I don't know enough about polka to say if it was a Norwegian polka, or a Swedish polka or a German or a Polish Polka. But the little enclave where I'm from, apparently has like the most Norwegian Americans in anywhere in the United States, or it did. So, there was always that it's not, it's not as musical of a culture, as you know, say Central Texas, with its Mexican music, and it's, it's a German music. But there was also like, there was a TV show on Saturday night on like, public access with polka, people dancing Polka. And then on on Sundays, there was there was a radio shows is like all day, that was like polka music and gospel. So I don't know, I, I need to like ask somebody in my family if they remember what that was. Because obviously, they had enough listeners of a certain age, probably, that, that we're into it. It's not It's not a big part of my influence that the pokin in the accordion stuff, but I hear it. And it makes me kind of choke up. So I know, there must have been some, it must have been a thread that kind of ran through subconsciously.
Thomas Mooney 36:27
Yeah, yeah, I always think that, like sometimes it's just having those instruments around. Even if you're not like, Oh, I love this kind of music. If that instruments there and you have access to it. And it's familiar, you can twist it and turn it and make it something that feels familiar for you or that it's something that you like.
Brennen Leigh 36:49
So you have like a literacy around it that not everyone has.
Thomas Mooney 36:55
Now, I wanted to talk about that first song. You you tap so much into that I something that I think if you get away from your hometown, and you are gone for even just a short amount of time and you come back, the world can change and you can feel like a stranger in your own hometown. And you you really capture that sense of that eeriness, that feeling of like and even just a little bit of you talk about some of that grief or ache or something. You can hear that little bit of your heartbreak in that moment to on this song. Where When did you When did that come out?
Brennen Leigh 37:42
I wrote that when I was in Austin, I must have written it three or four years ago, because I was still living there. And I had been home a few times, of course, my my folks still live where I grew up, so I visit them often. And you know, that's always nice. And I've got a few friends that live back home. But you know, sometimes you go home and it's just not there anymore. like things are just changed so much the high schools been remodeled. And it's this different building now. And it's farto itself is a lot more built up. It looks I drove through it back in July. And it's there's a lot of things about it that are that are unrecognizable, for better and worse. So it's bittersweet. And you know, when you're when you're young, you just it's the biggest thing you know, and you go home and things to kind of feel. It just feels it feels like, Well, for one I've lived away for a long time. And I don't have I don't have the accent anymore. And I'm often told to my chagrin, but you don't sound like you're from Minnesota, I get that a lot. And it's like, well, it hurts a little bit because on one hand, they're imagining that Fargo accent and they're expecting that maybe I would have that. But on the other hand, it's like a piece of my it's a piece of my culture that I will kind of wish I could you know, like a tattoo. It's like, I just I wish that I still had some. I look like a Minnesotan I'm, I'm you know, 510 and blonde. But besides that, you can't tell him from there unless I tell you.
Thomas Mooney 39:29
Yeah, you know, like there's this. I'm assuming you you you left and you went to what was like the first city you went to like that you were living in right after? I'm a I moved to San Marcus. Okay, a college for one year and then I quit college and when I moved to Austin, okay, so like, you probably will understand this big time is like, I moved from Fort Stockton to Lubbock, and it was kind of like, Oh, I'm moving to a bigger city. And anytime you kind of went back You go like any kind of I guess? I don't know, I'm trying to think of a great example here. Even just something is like, I remember moving or going back and visiting around Christmas and they had built a new, a new movie rental place. And like our own movie rental place was like, you know, just the crummy kind of place. And when they built this new one, it's like, Oh, you guys are finally getting a I don't think it was a blockbuster. But you know what I mean? It's like, oh, you're finally you're kind of like, given them a hard time. Like, Oh, we've got a bunch a bunch of stuff like this and wherever. And then like, that happens three or four more five times. And you're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, like, you guys shouldn't be able to have this stuff like I want for instruction to forever be that whatever. I remember it as a kid. Like, yeah, be that, that. I don't know that gatekeeper. For some reason. I feel like that's what you're some in some way. You're talking a little bit about like that feeling to?
Brennen Leigh 41:03
Yeah, I didn't want it to change. You know, I wanted this to be, I wanted to remember it. Like I remembered it. And like we had this little, there's a store that I mentioned in the song. And it was like this cute, General Store. And it had it had a pancake kind of breakfast restaurant restaurant attached to it. And you could, there's always like a bunch of octogenarians in there, eating pancakes, and smoking. And that's how I remember it. It was like, it could have been 1940, you know, and down there. And then the store was like a hardware store on one side. And the other side was groceries. And they had like little minnow tanks where you could get minnows for fishing, and ice cream counter. Or you could get a big ice cream cone. You know, and I like think of that so nostalgically, and then a few years after I moved, they remodeled the whole thing, and, you know, probably sold it. And now it's like a Valero such bummer. I just wanted it to be that old place.
Thomas Mooney 42:03
Yeah, like there's, there's the Yeah, like, my, I guess place for that would be there was this old truckstop there in Fort Stockton, that, obviously open 24 seven, you could go in there and get coffee. And you know, like the the tiles on the ceiling were just, it looks like they had never changed him from the forums, like just smoke, smoke rings all around, and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, just the walls had, you know, these old murals and it was called Comanche spring. So like, there's these old murals of Native Americans and they sold all the cliche kind of like paintings of Native Americans for that were on the wall you can buy right like in like, in deep down, it was kind of like a, you know, a crummy kind of place. But it was also like, just a perfect place a perfect place for colorful, right? And we would go there and like I remember my parents, and we would go there on like, Saturday or Sunday mornings and eat breakfast, because their breakfast was pretty good. But you know, you would always walk in and you could tell there is those, you know, five or six guys who got there at four in the morning to drink coffee and in gossip. Right? And I guess my long story short, like a few years ago, like they knocked it down and like there's just a parking lot now and it's just like, anytime I've driven by you just kind of go huh. That's makes you feel a little sick. Yeah. Yeah. So just uh,
Brennen Leigh 43:44
yeah, but I just those of us who those of us who go away we don't have a say, you know, in what happened?
Thomas Mooney 43:51
Yeah, well,
Brennen Leigh 43:52
we don't we don't get to choose.
Thomas Mooney 43:55
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Brennen Leigh 45:38
So I've been wanting to write that for a long time. And it's kind of a composite, you know, full disclosure, it's kind of a composite of a couple of different stories and people that I knew, but I had to enlist some help. And I got my friend Melissa Carper, who's one of my favorite writers, to help me write that. And so she actually has a version of it out, as well. And hers her version is, is the same as mine, except it takes place in Nebraska. That's where she's from. But she just changed, we changed the state for his thing in it, but you know, billion vo is about three friends. And two of them are boys. And they're, you know, they're, they're dealing with growing up gay and rural. And, yeah, that was a thing. You know, so, um, in my mind, it's kind of in the 90s, because that's when I was coming of age, was in the 1990s. And, you know, I can't speak to the, to that experience myself, you know, being a straight person, but I, it was all around me, and some of my best friends, were going through it. So I just, I just wanted to kind of, kind of tell a part of that story. And be just show the memory, of kind of that difficulty. And also just, just tell us a love story, and a story of friendship. And also kind of, you know, the, the main piece of that, that I I really relate to is kind of feeling like a little bit misunderstood. Right? And a little bit like, you'll never feel like you fit in. Because that's, I mean, I would think a lot of people could relate to that. So there was that. That element and also just kind of that magic of of young love that yellow when you're you know, 16 that's a that's a big part of that song. You know, there's there's a backdrop, of course, the whole the issues in the song, but for me, it's just kind of a Miss daljit snapshot of a time. That's gone.
Thomas Mooney 48:01
Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think anyone you're ignorant or naive to not feel like you know, someone who's, who's gay, or bi, or whatever the case is. And you know, growing up, I remember having friends who, now that they're open and out of the closet, like, you can always kind of go like, Oh, yeah, you know, I can you kind of reflect back on like, you know, I can't imagine growing up in a place like fort Stockton, where you're not like, there's no, there's nothing necessarily, let's just think about in the pop cultural sense, right? There's nothing necessarily geared to you. Or about like, yeah, you're, what you're going through, it's a you know, boy meets girl, right? It's a, it's never anything other than that, that's what's on TV or on the radio or what have you. So
Brennen Leigh 48:57
and I would imagine that that would just contribute to your feelings of isolation. Not having anyone tell your story. So, to me that that's been a nice gratifying thing about releasing that song has been, you have been told. This is nice to hear, because it's a perspective. You know, no one's been telling my story. No one's in country music. They've been so underrepresented. Right? So, hopefully, doing a little little bit of my part to help with that. But, you know, the intention was just to tell this love story. And growing up, growing up is hard enough, growing up as an eccentric kid in in the Midwest, where I'm from which conformity was valued. Know, thankfully, my family was pretty open to me being a weirdo, and they were fine with it, but the conformity and the being a certain way in that part of the country. For years, it was it was encouraged. And so I can't imagine having that extra thing of being gay. You know, in addition to being, you know, a creative person or just an eccentric like I was always be a challenge to say the least.
Thomas Mooney 50:18
Yeah, you know, like this is, it's a little apples to oranges here. But here's like a perfectly perfect example. My mother is left handed. I'm left handed, but when my mother was growing up, she was like, forced to be right handed. Because being right handed was that's what the teacher you Right, right handed. I have a class full of people right handed. You're going to be right handed, I'm not going to teach a lefty, you know what I mean? And that's something very, very small. And you think of it as being so backwards now. But even just 50 years ago, that was something totally different.
Brennen Leigh 50:57
Oh, that's actually a pretty good analogy, and forcing somebody to do something or be something that's unnatural to them. Because that's because you don't want to change your your viewpoint.
Thomas Mooney 51:09
Yeah. Yeah. Like it's, it's I, I feel like everyone would be would be Mind blown. And just, if that came out in a, in a first grade setting, if a teacher was trying to do that, or something right now, you know,
Brennen Leigh 51:26
just forcing a child to write. Yeah, right. right handed if they were left handed.
Thomas Mooney 51:30
So yeah. Anyways, I wanted to ask you a couple things about like you're about, I guess every song kind of comes out different, all that kind of stuff. But in general, like kind of what you go for when you're writing a song? Is there like a, a, not necessarily a perfect time? But is there a time of day, and a certain kind of mood that you kind of fit better whenever you're writing, or that fits you better?
Brennen Leigh 52:04
Alright, pretty well in the morning. Oddly enough, I like to have quiet. But it's not always that sometimes it's, I'll be driving. Or I would be driving back when we used to drive. And listening to something. You know, sometimes listening to a song will give you give me an idea for another song.
Thomas Mooney 52:31
Right? Yeah. Are you there? Are you there?
Brennen Leigh 52:42
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, lose. Yeah,
Thomas Mooney 52:44
yeah. You you've dropped out for a second there. You're talking about like driving? And
Brennen Leigh 52:50
oh, yeah. When? When Yeah, I would even be listening to something sometimes and start writing a song while I was listening to another song. Because songs give me ideas for songs. That sort of books and things people say. And conversation.
Thomas Mooney 53:08
Yeah, I always wonder about and I think like, people are more, I guess, open to this, because I think like we romanticize the, oh, you know, I sat down and it just came natural. And it just, I just wrote it right there in 15 minutes. But so many songs, so many of the great songs that we love. Somebody just songs in general, how much of that backward? Or how much work? Was it? Before you even picked up a instrument and picked up the pen and paper? And how much of the work was done before I even started writing it down necessarily?
Brennen Leigh 53:45
Yeah, I don't know. I think sometimes believer that. It depends what kind of song you're trying to write. But look, all of the songs on this record. There was an emotional element to them. That had to be there. I couldn't just sit down and go write a song about you know, I'm gonna write a song about a dog. Because it was a goal I set out to do or something. There had to be that emotional connection. And that strong feeling before I could start,
Thomas Mooney 54:22
right.
Brennen Leigh 54:23
It just depends on the type of song though.
Thomas Mooney 54:26
Yeah. Have you? Are you are you like a pen and paper person? Are you? Yeah, gotta have a plan.
Brennen Leigh 54:32
Usually. Usually I've got a notebook and a pen and a guitar.
Thomas Mooney 54:39
Yeah. Because obviously, with technology and stuff, there's the iPads and computers and stuff like that. Obviously, a lot of people use that kind of stuff. Do you just typically write it all on paper and then transfer it later? Or is Does it ever even go into a computer? It's
Brennen Leigh 54:59
I I usually write it on paper. And then I will eventually type it for some reason because someone like, I'll send it to my publisher or whoever might need it. And when I read it on paper, it looks like it looks like a big mess. It's like a huge mess. On the paper. There's stuff written sideways and upside down and, like drawing. So eventually, I have to type it.
Thomas Mooney 55:28
Yeah, like the Yeah, I've, I'm such a, I feel like I don't necessarily have like horrible handwriting. I've said, I've had horrible handwriting on here before and I, but I've got Well, I guess like lazy handwriting. Like it just kind of like, the longer I Yeah, me too. The the worse it gets. And then like, you're just kind of like, what is this? At the bottom? So? Yeah, do you
Brennen Leigh 55:54
but I like I like the paper and pen because I get distracted. It's not that I don't. I mean, I use technology. I'm an avid, addicted user of technology. But it distracts me so badly that I can't have it in front of me while I'm trying to be creative. Because it's just too different. That's two different parts of my thing.
Thomas Mooney 56:17
Yeah, it's so like, the temptation just to check on something else is, is too high right there if it's right within grasp. So right 100% fill you on that one. When it when it comes to, like co writing with someone? How do you typically kind of, I guess, get yourself ready for for that kind of thing?
Brennen Leigh 56:43
Well, I try to show up with a clear head and a positive attitude. Because I want to be there for that other person and, you know, do the best job I can. Lately, I've been just kind of writing with people I'm close to be my first couple years in Nashville, I did a lot more CO writing with random people that I had just met or never met. And that's great. That usually, co writing is really fun. You know, because writing, hanging out with other songwriters is really fun for me whether a song gets accomplished or not. But with CO writing, I just try to, I try to remember that that person is there for a reason, to offer a different viewpoint. So, you know, flexibility is really important. And listening is really important. And, you know, also showing up with an idea or two is always a good idea. Trying to have a goal kind of blueprinting the song together and being open to the other person's ideas. And not getting too attached to my own ideas. That's, that's an important.
Thomas Mooney 57:57
Yeah, like the, I feel like there's, I feel like everyone is kind of like, in that way, right of the, your ideas good, but like my idea is slightly better. In general, like,
Brennen Leigh 58:09
you should, you should be able to say that, too. If you genuinely believe that, you know, you should be able to say, No, I feel pretty, I feel pretty strongly about this. But not to a fault, because then you're just gonna, you know, we've all been steamrolled in a songwriting appointment and turned off by it. Yeah. Like, like somebody just ram rotting their way through. That's not any fun. You have to listen. But also, if I think if I think your idea is there's something like not good about it. I you should I should be able to say, yeah, this is here's why I don't really like that, you know, a line or whatever. I think I think this lacks clarity. Can we can we say this in another way? Just being diplomatic? It goes a long way.
Thomas Mooney 58:59
Yeah. Going back to that Minnesota. Nice. Right. The
Brennen Leigh 59:02
Yeah, right. You can say something nice. Exactly.
Thomas Mooney 59:06
It does. I feel like if if something needs clarity, for you in the room, that some on something that you're writing, you got to think about, like how is that going to translate for an audience, you know, so that clarity is necessary or?
Brennen Leigh 59:24
Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's always on my mind. Like, this might mean something to me. But if it's if it's indiscernible for other people, if they're going to be lost Hmm,
Thomas Mooney 59:35
yeah, cuz it's, I guess it's that balance of going back to you don't want to you want to be specific in in a way niche, but you don't also want to just turn off any everybody. So
Brennen Leigh 59:49
you lost you there for a sec. Oh,
Thomas Mooney 59:51
I was saying you know, like you. You want to be specific in your writing in and write about things that are in I hate to say it like this Like in a niche kind of way, but you don't want to just make it worse. So super specific.
Brennen Leigh 1:00:05
No one gets it. Yeah, like you don't, you don't want an inside joke to be in there. Yeah. You don't want to say something that only you and three people will understand what you're talking about. I mean, maybe you do. I don't I try to make things universally relatable. Because it's funny, like, the more specific The story is sometimes the more relatable it is,
Thomas Mooney 1:00:31
right? Yeah, absolutely. That's why that's why I like a lot of the songs on this new record I hear. I do feel like they aren't West Texas, but I feel like they're the same thing. In a way. So like, that's, even though you're obviously being super specific to this area. I feel like that's something that I tap into, or that you've tapped into that I like, and
Brennen Leigh 1:00:58
that's good. So
Thomas Mooney 1:01:00
yeah, like, I feel like I don't know, like, we almost always kind of maybe are scared that people aren't going to understand our area. So yeah,
Brennen Leigh 1:01:12
I don't know, I had a big fear about that. I mean, going into this, I was really questioning and myself repeatedly about, because it is like Texas is the romanticize all around the world. Everyone can point it out on a map. Everyone knows where Texas is, and about cowboys and all the things that people think of when they think of Texas and where I'm from. I mean, truthfully, a lot of people can't point it out on a map. And it's not. There's not been a trail blazed for me of romance and nostalgia. It's like this kind of no man's land in modern history anyway. And so I was afraid that only people from up there would like it. And only, you know, only people from the 30 mile radius that I'm writing about what would would be into it, but that's not turned out to be true. Because the theme, I think the themes are bigger, you know, there's loss and, and histologia and homesickness and that kind of thing.
Thomas Mooney 1:02:20
Yeah, now you you've kind of been, you know, in, I guess, I don't know, Association, in contact with some of those early Texas pioneers. Specifically, like guy Clark. I never met guy Clark or anything like that, but he's one of my all time favorites. What's something like, uh, I guess about guy that you would? Not necessarily the average person probably wouldn't realize if you walked into the room and saw him there. You have anything like that?
Brennen Leigh 1:02:58
Something about guy?
Thomas Mooney 1:02:59
Yeah, like, just like that's like, oh, he actually. I don't know.
Brennen Leigh 1:03:04
I don't know. Well, I know guy could come off as sort of a little bit gruff. Maybe. And he was. But he was so gentle. He was such a gentle man. I know guys through a new guy through to Norma Kay. No, and guy met in like, 93 way back when Noah was young songwriter, and he introduced me to guy in about 2008. And we visited him a lot in the last five, six years of his life in Nashville before, before we lived here. And I don't know I just I liked being in his company. That was it. That was a thing. We didn't ride together. The two of them were building a guitar together and writing and we just often would go over there and hang out with him. We open forum sometimes in various places, Texas. But he just was this gentle person. And and one thing I always like to remember about guys that he he treated me as an equal. Which, if you think about the context of who he was, his age and his gender, and everything he'd accomplished. It's kind of mind blowing, because that's not very common. In someone of his generation, he treated me as an equal and a friend and I just I appreciated that. The young songwriter
Thomas Mooney 1:04:52
Yeah, like, it is interesting because I guess like, you're talking like the man of that kind of time, and those accomplishments the you would maybe expect the, the ego to come along with those accomplishments.
Brennen Leigh 1:05:09
Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong he did have, he did appreciate praise. On more than one level, I think he understood how good he was. He understood his level of skill, because how could you not write? But he was gentle. And I've never known anybody that was so encouraging to young artists and tried to get, I mean, there's multiple lots of people I could name that he kind of took under his wing and tried to make their careers pop. Because he cared.
Thomas Mooney 1:05:48
Yeah, like, that's, I feel like if you're someone like that, it's so easy to just kind of turn off the world, right? Like, I've, I'm Clark and I don't have to necessarily give that Lyndon can to the next generation or anything like that. But that's so important. I feel.
Brennen Leigh 1:06:08
Yeah, he could have totally checked out. Well, he didn't.
Thomas Mooney 1:06:13
That's I feel like that's something that as aging songwriters, or aging, musicians can go, like, you can lose that sense of touch. You know, you it's easy to go in and go like, Man, you know, there for a minute. Dylan fell off for like, oh, Springsteen, like what is he? You know, it's very, very easy to understand that the Rolling Stones or whoever. It feels like guy never really lost touch of what was good.
Brennen Leigh 1:06:46
Yeah, he was he was into, he never, he never stopped loving music, and being inspired by new things. You know, we'd go over there and he'd be playing inkspot or he'd be he'd have discovered a new song once went over there one time and he was listening to this Dave Alvin song over and over again. A song called Johnny Ace is dead. You know, just that probably kept him young. And he was he did have a young youth about his. His Spirit curmudgeonly, though he can be. Yeah.
Thomas Mooney 1:07:23
Obviously, like you, you've been. You've been, I felt, okay, I'm going to backtrack. There. I'm going to cut that part that stammering there. You know, you had a lot of songs cut by other folks. Some that maybe I feel like would surprise people. Someone like Charlie Crockett, we talk. I've known Charlie for a minute. And, you know, he caught one of your songs. And he just absolutely loves your song. Right? And you're playing and stuff like that. In that sense? Like, what, uh, I guess like, Where did you meet Charlie?
Brennen Leigh 1:08:02
Man I am. I don't remember exactly where I met Charlie. But I remember seeing him around Austin. I don't know. 678 years ago, when he was not real. He didn't really have a career going at the time, not not in a way not in the way that he does now. And I just would see this guy and think he'd come to my shows and my shows with Norma Kay. And he was always this like, impeccably dressed handsome guy. Who is this guy, you know? And we got to be friends. And I've just seen him. Blossom isn't the right word. He's he's been more like a rocket. You know, he's just done so well. And his art has just exploded. He's just such a great artist that I I just admire so much. And I think we might have met it met either green hall or the white horse or something like that.
Thomas Mooney 1:09:00
Yeah. You know, like one of the things I really like about Charlie is, sometimes it's so easy to I guess like, when when releasing records, it's very easy to go, Oh, you know, I released 118 months ago, I need to get something out now. All right, let's wait another and it ends up being one of those things where sometimes you're sitting on a record forever, just because the the norms of releasing records is different. And Charlie is just releasing material all the time. And I
Brennen Leigh 1:09:35
think he has an enviable release schedule. But isn't he?
Thomas Mooney 1:09:39
Yeah, it's like he's catching up like he's making or making up for lost or for pastime lost, you know, getting it. Yeah,
Brennen Leigh 1:09:46
that's I mean, that's probably really been good for him. I mean, I think I've had a conversation with him about it. Just got to keep releasing things and, you know, remind people that you exist and it gives them something new I aspire to be the same, but you really have to focus.
Thomas Mooney 1:10:05
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's been really great talking to you today about this record.
Brennen Leigh 1:10:13
Yeah, you too. Thank you for listening to it and doing the research and asking the right question.
Thomas Mooney 1:10:25
Okay, thanks for listening to Newsline. Be sure to check out prairie love letter by Brennan Lee. It's out this Friday, September at checkout desert door and the blue light live. Alright, I'll see y'all later this week for another episode of newsflash.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai