105: Jenny Tolman

On Episode 105, I'm joined by singer-songwriter Jenny Tolman. Tolman released her debut full-length album, the excellent and charming There Goes The Neighborhood just about a year ago. During this interview, we discuss the creation of Jennyville--the fictional picturesque town that's the focal point of Neighborhood--how and why she drifted towards this concept, growing up in Nashville, the Nashville songwriting machine and industry as a whole, and how she's stayed focused, grounded, and sane during the 2020 pandemic.

This episode's presenting partner is The Blue Light Live.

Interview Transcript

Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.

Thomas Mooney 0:02

Welcome to Episode 105 of Newsline, I am your host music journalist Thomas Mooney. We start off the week, being joined by singer songwriter Jenny Tolman. This time last year, Jenny had just released her full length, debut album, the charming, there goes the neighborhood. It's such a fun record. And that's something that I don't think we talk nearly enough about. She obviously taps into these more serious subjects of the human condition. But there goes the neighborhood is also really fun. Essentially, what she does on the album, is lead us through the fictional Jennyville. It's a concept record, and you can listen to it on a very broad level and enjoy it as well. There's that nice gossip and wink and grins about small town life, and the very picture as postcard or billboard kind of way. But then there's also plenty that you can pick at, and find those deeper connections, song to song and so on. I didn't think of this while talking with Jenny. But I think it's an apt description. There goes the neighborhood has a little bit of a pop up book quality to it. Each song is like flipping the page. And there's this really bright and colorful 3d representation of that song. And I mean that in a very romanticized kind of way. I think Ginny plays a lot with those notions of what a picturesque life and town are supposed to be. There's a real vintage 50s or 60s image of what This American Life is. But she also challenges those notions, stereotypes, and really the status quo what that quote unquote, perfect life is, it's in the most obvious of ways with the songs like eight Mary Jane, my welcome mat, where there goes the neighborhood, but it's also in a song like so pretty, where she challenges the idea of how you're supposed to hate the person who your ex is with. You don't like your ex because of how things ended. And by proxy, that means you're not supposed to like your ex's new flame. But what if she's actually really, really great, and you are kind of just taken aback by that situation, then what happens? Anyway, there's a lot of other examples of this on the album, and it's just a really rewarding listening experience. If you haven't checked it out just yet. You really should. It's clever, smart, introspective, sharp. Like I said earlier, a really fun album. If this is your first time listening to new slang, I strongly suggest hitting that subscribe link. If you just did, I'm giving you a virtual High Five right now. New slang is over on iTunes, Spotify, Google podcast, Stitcher, radio, and basically any and everywhere you listen to podcasts, go check out the new slang merch store, grab a koozie some stickers, buttons, and magnets. Any bit helps, I'll throw a link into the show notes. And if you're into a playlist, go check out Tom Rooney's cup of coffee and the neon Eon playlist over on Spotify. The neon Neon is for all your nostalgic 90s country needs, which there's going to be more neon Eon related stuff coming your way pretty soon. And then Tom mooneyes cup of coffee is a regularly updated mix of new Americana and country music. It's also a really great hint who I have coming up on the podcast. So yeah, go follow those. Alright, I think that's about it on the housekeeping notes. Here is Jenny Tolman. So like, I guess, you know, when I first came across you and this record that you released last year. The biggest part of it is obviously that it is a concept record where you're you've developed Jennyville

Jenny Tolman 3:41

Yeah,

Thomas Mooney 3:42

what I guess like, I it's probably one of those chicken or egg kind of things. But like where did at what point during the during the creation on this record? Did you decide to go for? Hey, I want to make Jenny Ville a thing. Yeah.

Jenny Tolman 4:00

Yeah, so it was honestly kind of an accident, like it was never intentional. I didn't set out to make a Boomtown or have a concept record really. But it was kind of just a natural organic progression that I had with my producer, Dave Brainerd, because we were writing together a ton for the album. And, and we were kind of starting to notice that a lot of the songs that we were writing, I had these characters that kept coming back and like we wanted to tell more of their story, or we wanted to connect this character to this character and this new song. And so it was kind of this natural kind of just tendency that we had and just kind of realizing like wait a second, it was actually Dave who was like, Well, why don't we take these characters and we put them into a place called JennyVille and they're just living there and and even at that moment, It was just purely for our own personal pleasure of songwriting. Like we weren't planning on turning that into the album or anybody else ever even hearing about JennyVille, it was just gonna be like, our creative place that we go to, and that we know these characters. And then eventually, it just kind of worked into like, Oh, well, maybe this is kind of like a little symbolism or hidden easter eggs here and there throughout the album, and we can connect everything, you know, make it extra nerdy for those music nerds out there that will pretty soon.

Thomas Mooney 5:38

Yeah, like, it's always I always love those little things, like where you, you know, it's like the GIF of Charlie Day, like, where he's got, like, all this stuff on the back of the wall. And he's like, connecting all the dots and everything. That's how I feel like when I'm listening to music, I love like, trying to find those connections. And then, you know, there's some things where I asked them ask a songwriter somebody, is this connected? And they're like, oh, obviously not. And then you're like, Okay, well, I guess, maybe I look too, too far into it. But, you know, this is obviously like you you guys do? make it known for the artists or for the listener to, to check those out. And I guess like, really, really ties those all together are those little radio jingle type songs in there. And then also, like, postcard from Ginny Ville, they those really make it feel like you. Like, you're not just listening to songs, but you're like, you know, just cruising around town or something. And you're pointing out people or something like that. When did those like At what point did you go? Oh, we have to have those in here, too.

Jenny Tolman 6:52

Yeah, so the commercials were all Dave's idea that was that was the brainchild of the producer there. To kind of just add that whole extra element of, Okay, we're in this town, and he wanted it to be like, you are exactly like what you just said, like you're driving around, you're listening to the radio and commercials Come on. And you're in this town. And so it just kind of solidifies these characters even more. The postcard from JennyVille song. I have I love Emmylou Harris's records, The Ballad of Sally rose. And there's a song on there called I think I love him. And it's only I think it's only a minute long, or maybe a little over a minute. It's just like this little half song. It's very open ended and very like up to the listener to interpret what it means or what happened and and I've just always loved stuff like that, where there's not a definite answer as to like what is the same to you. And so I wanted to have some type of song like that to almost leave a little mystery hanging for the next album. To do a little foreshadowing, to continue on the Jenny build process. So that's kind of a postcard from Jenny vo came from, because we introduced these two characters that obviously, they were either in love and they were going to be together and something happened and we don't know what happened. But all we know is that they're separated now and they're not together and, and it's just this really like heartbreaking but beautiful melody, I always call it my Disney Princess. It's just so different than anything else on the album. And honestly, it's one of my favorite things on the album for that reason.

Thomas Mooney 8:44

Yeah. You know, like one of those things that I always like to in on on albums are those little moments like that, where you can tell like the like the main reason why it's on there is because whoever recorded the record, wanted it on there. You know, it's like this isn't going to be a radio single or this isn't going to be you know, if it was off the the listener probably wouldn't notice it being missing but like yeah, I want this on there because like that's just it's my record. And

Jenny Tolman 9:21

yeah, that extra creative element and I guess artistic expression.

Thomas Mooney 9:30

Well, you know what, that's really interesting though. How you're talking about like how like, we'll be connecting to the next record. And like you know it I guess like that I have not really thought about like that because but like I it's also very very short in the the postcard since I thought about how, you know, it's a very, very much like just a like, like I said it's or you said it's like a minute long but that's like the postcard and You know, it's not a letter, it's not a john deere letter or something. Or john deere, john, I said john deere, for some reason what someone else about, like Ginny Ville is how you're very much like, introduced to this town as being very picturesque. And it's like all the nice things, but then like you, you dive deep into, you know, like, the the gossip and the politics of a small town. How easy was that? Like, for you to like, just as far as like, developing all those little riffs and, you know, passive aggressive conversations between people in like, you know, hair salon kind of gossip, and I guess like, what did you get into that? Yeah.

Jenny Tolman 10:54

Yeah. I guess, in a way, it comes natural, growing, you know, I grew up I was born in Nashville, and I was raised in a, in a smaller town outside of Nashville, but just honestly, kind of experiences from my own life, and from my co writers lives and, and having very, very, what's the word for this? existential conversations with my co writers, about, you know, we all have different viewpoints on the way that the world works, and what's, what's truth to us. And that really comes across in my welcome that I feel like everybody in that song, every character in that song is somebody that I know, personally, or my co writers know, personally, or it's us. And so it's kind of, I like taking the good elements of everybody. Because even in bad situations, like even in a climate that we're in right now, and realize, I feel like I always try to look at everybody, as we want the same thing. In the end, we have very different ideas about how to get there. But if you just look at everybody's core beliefs, for the most part, I totally believe that we all want the same thing. And so that's kind of something that I was very careful about when creating these characters was, yeah, they're going to they're going to be gossipy. Because that's just how realize there's going to be negative things about everybody unlike and so pretty, I'm going to have these jealous, negative emotions towards somebody because it's so nice to be, I wish I hated you. But it's an honest emotion that I think we've all had. And But anyways, back to my point, I try to look at the good and amplify that yet still acknowledge that, you know, these, quote unquote, negative things are a reality for everybody, we all do. Wrong. Now. And then we're all you know, but we're all doing the best that we can, too, I think so. Really just trying to acknowledge that and almost like paying your respects to the the small town culture, because it is a culture and it is something that you know, I value and I love with all my heart, I'm a country artists. And so it's kind of these ideas, and these values are what I've grown up on, and so just kind of paying homage to that, but also enlightening it a little bit more, you know, in any way that I can because, I mean, I know I'm for sure, not the most enlightened person in the world. But doing what we all can help open each other's minds a little bit more.

Thomas Mooney 13:57

Yeah. You know, a couple things on that. One, like, yeah, I think that like, I guess one of the big things that I try and always think about is, and keep in mind, and this is like overly generalizing the world at large, but that like, for the most part, people aren't, like evil. Like they, they do bad things, but like, for the most part, like the general public is, there's not like an evilness in them. And you can do something bad and not be an evil person and that's like that goes to a lot of like, like, I just feel like we sometimes chalk up bad things happening in the world as like this greater evil instead of like trying to figure out why they like they happen. And now like that's to a broader point, but like, I think that like that's why so many of our great songwriters but Hum songwriters is because you do have that empathy of trying to understand these characters who are from a different walk of life than you. And specifically in like, this small town setting, like you're saying is, one of the big things about small town life I grew up in a small town is that, you know, you're generally kind of stuck in this small town like, and so you have to survive by you have to coexist with these people. Because like, there's not, you're not necessarily just going to pack up and leave, you know, and they aren't gonna pack up and leave. For whatever reason. You guys are both in this small town. And sometimes you guys just have to coexist with the, like I said, kind of like those. I always love like, the little passive aggressive grandmas, you know, of like, kinda like just like, talk about, you can just tell like, they both don't like each other, really. And then like, one walks, like, but they've been nice to each other the entire time. And you're like, what is up like? Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then like, they're, of course, always, like, just really, really, they can be like, mean to like, younger kids. And then like, that's when they use the bless your heart big time. And like, those younger people are like, they don't really understand that until they become that person. This is probably like, too much info on my stuff is like it was my

Jenny Tolman 16:40

I really feel

Thomas Mooney 16:41

Yeah, no, I really like all that all of the, all of the, like, the small town politics of it all. And I don't even necessarily mean like real politics, but like, you know, right, getting along, I feel like you really tap into that.

Jenny Tolman 16:58

Oh, thank you. I mean, it's a, there's a lot of dynamics that go on everywhere. And to that point, as well, I feel like that was something that was important to get across that there are so many dynamics because I feel like so often small towns and quote unquote, country music is, is written off as, like, oh, Bubba and sitting on the front porch of his corncob pipe. And you know, and these people are just bumpkins and idiots and, and so, to really kind of, like I said before, like, honor that culture, because they are so dynamic, and they're, they are intelligent, and they have you know, what I mean, there's, there's so many different facets to, to that small town politics that you're calling in. So yeah, that was, that was kind of an important thing to get across in all these characters. Because if you have multiple characters, you're not going to have a boring, stupid community, you know what I mean, we all get along. When everybody's the same,

Thomas Mooney 18:09

right? Exactly. Now, obviously, also, on this record, what your cut, you're mixing, like, in a lot of ways like this, too, to very, I guess, in a way to very specific type of types of, I guess, arrows there's obviously like a throwback to you know, like 50s or 60s culture especially like the in the radio jingles and like, just like the fashion choices, but then also like on a song like eight Mary Jane, or my welcome mat, you're talking about very progressive ideas that weren't around necessarily back then or weren't popular back then. But like, are very, very, super relevant to now. How easy was it to really like mash those together to combine those two kind of general styles?

Jenny Tolman 19:08

Yeah, I don't think that it was really that much of a of a thought process on on how we do that, because I think it kind of even deepens the characters a little more. Kind of like you said that that stuff wasn't talked about and it wasn't discussed. So kind of just digging into the it adds a whole nother layer of that character and what they believe and in their personalities that Oh, sit there talking about this like openly. Okay, so it to me it kind of just drives home that characters even more.

Thomas Mooney 19:56

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Jenny Tolman 22:09

Yeah, I I think I was blissfully unaware for the most part. You know, because my dad was in the music industry. That's how I was born. Here he was, he was put together by Burt Reynolds into a colon two vocal cords that kind of like the okra spores that are called the Indian nurturer voice. So he has a very interesting story. But long story short, they ended up here and saying on Garth know, fences album and did a lot of cool stuff. But he eventually switched business side. And so I grew up with my dad working with Reba, and Sarah Evans, and, you know, booking them on these different shows and in producing different events and stuff like that. And so, you know, and I would be backstage at the opera. And so it was very normal to me, like, I didn't realize how amazing that was. Because now looking back, I'm like, Oh, my God, that's really awesome. But it was very much like, I think in a way to it was a blessing that I didn't think that it was as cool as it was because I also saw quote, unquote, celebrities in a different light. I didn't see them as being that much different than us. It was just like, Oh, well, this is their job. Like Of course, this is what my dad does. And this is their job and, and so it's kind of kind of like that to where I don't think that the mystique or the the smoke and mirrors really affected me that much. And so I don't hold that to a much higher level. Now that I'm an artist, either it's not that's not the reason why I'm doing it because I've already seen behind the scenes, I guess is the way to say and not at all in an egotistical way at all just kind of being thankful for that. So yeah, it's kind of but I will say once I wanted to be songwriter once I had this lightbulb moment of like, oh, wait a second, cuz I played piano since I was three at saying since before I can even remember I was Chicken Little in my kindergarten. And I've been writing stories since I was a little too I thought that maybe I'd be a children's author or something like that. And but really, once I got a guitar for my 16th birthday, it was kind of the lightbulb moment where I was like, Wait a second. If I put everything that I love to do together, it's called being a singer songwriter, and I love country music and, you know, that's what I've grown up on. I love the more traditional sounding country. So like if I want to do this, then I can do this and and kind of since that moment, that's haven't looked back and, and that's what my life has been. So I feel like once I made that conscious decision, I started looking at it differently. I started looking at Nashville differently. And I started realizing really, because I started meeting fellow artists and aspiring artists and songwriters that weren't from here, and that had left their families and left everything that they knew behind to be these brave badasses and come to Nashville and, and that was really, I think, when it hit me, I was like, holy shit, I, I didn't ask to give up anything to try this because I was already here, my family's here, my parents are here, you know, I have a support system. And so I'm always just amazed at how many people are so brave and have so much courage to leave everything they know, to follow this dream. So yeah, it's kind of I've kind of had a backwards experience.

Thomas Mooney 25:59

Yeah, like, to me what it would seem like if, if growing up in, in a, in a place like Nashville, would be that since since it is so focused on the industry that it normalizes all that takes down the facade of like, all the mythical aspects of being an artist, and you get to see those people in a normal day setting, you know, just wearing blue jeans and a T shirt. And, you know, just not necessarily where there have to be on their game, like 24 seven. All right, you know, you know, you mentioned your dad being part of a quartet. Is that kind of like that? Is that a tie back into like the the radio jingle stuff?

Jenny Tolman 26:45

Yeah, so that's actually them singing? Okay. Yeah, the album, they reunited after like 30 years. And saying, so they're my puppies, boys. They're the SE jingle.

Thomas Mooney 26:59

Well, that's really cool. Yeah, that

Jenny Tolman 27:01

was really special. It was. I mean, it was it was really special for me. And they're, they're just so excited to be together. And, you know, it was really special for them. I think. It's after all these years to kind of get back together and their harmonies were spot on second. They started it back up. Well, they haven't lost it yet.

Thomas Mooney 27:23

Yeah, I was gonna ask if it was a, like pulling teeth kind of situation. Or if your dad was like, oh, we're ready. Like, let's go. Come on. It's not even a five minute phone call. And

Jenny Tolman 27:36

no, they were actually great. I mean, just a couple of quick run. throughs. And we're like, All right, ready to go?

Thomas Mooney 27:42

They've been practicing in secret this whole time just waiting for this. Yeah. You mentioned your dad being like, on the business side of things, um, and you kind of being able to be around these these artists and see them in that that normal day kind of thing. I mean, there's always like, really, I feels like there's a lot of people who always have those stories of I guess like, Oh, you know, Rio McIntyre made me a sandwich one time. Do you have anything like that? growing up?

Jenny Tolman 28:20

Oh, my gosh, I'm trying to think, well, the speaking of the Oak Ridge Boys, this is this is actually a really funny story. So I was probably When was this? I was probably maybe 11. Not even probably probably even younger. Because it was my dad's company at the time. They were actually producing the inauguration for George W. Bush. And I was so little, like, obviously, I didn't care. I didn't even understand what anything meant. And all that I knew was that it was freezing. And I was tired and why? Because we're standing outside all day. And I was just the biggest brat like, I was so tired. And so I wrote in my diary, and I didn't even remember this. My dad brought it out at dinner one night. And I was like, it was so cold and it was so boring. And then my dad wanted me to meet the cordage boys and the Oak Ridge Boys but I remember their name right? And then fast forward to when I'm like actually starting an artist's career. Dwayne Allen of the Oakridge boys, he's, he's such a sweet fan of mine. And he's actually you know, reached out and talked to me a few times just kind of helping guide me through music industry and you know, he's very nice. Like if you ever have any questions or you need to talk about anything like regarding that any of this stuff, just let me know. So he's kind of an open ear. For me. It's just such a funny story. Because when I was little, this inauguration that I just didn't understand at all. And then my dad was wanting me to meet the court, his boys and then fast forward to now they're like the sweetest supporters of mine.

Thomas Mooney 30:22

Yeah, like, that's just the I think we all have like those, those Bret stories of just being like the obnoxious kid at whatever, because not the thing that you want. But yeah, not all of us adult parties are gonna love this. You know, talk, talk smack on the Oakridge boys

Jenny Tolman 30:44

like, Yeah, I know, like, Who did? I think that I was? I don't know. I'm gonna have to show him that journal entry someday. Yeah. And hopefully he'll forgive me.

Thomas Mooney 30:58

Yeah, that's really funny. Did you, you you mentioned a minute ago about, you know, all these other artists moving into town and doing the just kind of like, you know, trying to fulfill their dreams. And you you did you? Did you really feel like, since you did have that infrastructure of home, and a bit of like that safety net, you know, like, where you're not ever like, you're just not far from your parents? Did that make you feel like you could? I guess, like, did was that some like reassurance as far as being an artist as far as like, Oh, I don't have to try and be the next insert name, I can just do what I want. And you get what I'm saying?

Jenny Tolman 31:55

Yeah. And, honestly, I think it was the opposite for me, because I would almost get a little. Because I mean, like, on one hand, I'm not jealous at all of the people that have had to leave everything. But then on the other hand, I would almost get jealous isn't the right word, but, like competitive thing, because I know that when you have a comfort blanket, you're not going to be motivated as hard and you're not going to be, you're gonna be like, Oh, well, you know, like, if this doesn't work out, I've got this. And that's never anything that I've wanted, like my mom and I, from day one, that I decided that I was going to start being an artist, it was we had a conversation, it's like, there's no plan B, I'm not going to even put any type of thought to this not working, there's only Plan A, and I'm going to do Plan A. And so it's been a very conscious effort for me to kind of keep that line of thinking going because it is very easy. Or it would be very easy to fall into that, you know, like, well, I've got all this here. Like, it's not really that big of a deal if this doesn't work. And so, I've had to kind of personally just keep kicking myself in the athletes, like, you're gonna keep doing this, like, we're going to act as though we have nothing waiting for us here, you know, and I'm very thankful and I'm so appreciative of all the support and, and just the comfort of having my family here, but, but almost acting as though I don't have that to keep up with the people who are who do not have that here and then who are so intensely motivated to make this happen for them, you know?

Thomas Mooney 33:49

Yeah, because like, it very much seems like, you know, if, you know, I'm really, I guess, like, the romanticism of having to, like struggle, to to be an artist, I feel is kind of like, not like it shouldn't be a thing as far as, you know, you have to like Live Super, you know, impoverished and give up everything in a very like Townes. Van Zandt kind of way. I feel like right, we romanticize that way too much and but like, yeah, at some point, like it does help in some in some respects of, of motivation, you know, so

Jenny Tolman 34:35

yeah, you don't grow if you're comfortable, so you got to get a little uncomfortable every now and then.

Thomas Mooney 34:42

Now, like, I think for most people, I think that like living outside of Nashville, like never growing up even remotely close to a, a Music Center, I feel like you are for me. Like, I think most people, they think of being a musician as, as like being a, like zero or 100. Like there's no middle ground. Like you're either you play guitar as a hobby in, like on weekends with your family, or, you know, your George Strait. And there's like, no middle ground, right? Growing up in Nashville, though, like, it feels like you would have a better sense of like that there is like a whole lot of middle ground. Did that help help? Like, maybe, like, naturally temper expectations of what you want to be? But like, is that was that some like, I guess, in a way, some like reassurance that, you know, you don't have to be George Strait, or, you know, Miranda Lambert or Reba McIntyre. Because there is only a few slots for those very, very, like top tier number one, you know, I have like 40, number one hits that kind of thing.

Jenny Tolman 36:01

Yeah, I don't know if that ever really registered in my head at the time, I think that's probably something that I started understanding more once I was older. And once I was actually in the music industry, because I don't think that I ever really was like, Oh, well, this artist is a bigger star than this one right now. Or this one's just starting out. I mean, obviously, I was aware of that. But I don't think I ever gave it that much thought or was aware to the level that you're speaking of. But I mean, I definitely think of that think that way now. And I'm sure that growing up seeing all the different levels is a much helps, helps it be a much easier understanding of how it all works, and how there are so many different lanes that everybody can go about it. Because I mean, even even when I was starting out, I was like, Oh my gosh, like I have to get on a major label deal. And I have to get on radio. And I have to do all this and this and this and this. And so I was still in that mindset even growing up here, like, well, that's what you have to do. But now, and it's probably changed to since I was growing up because of social media. And, you know, because social media really came in when I was in middle school and high school, like big time with Instagram and all that. But no, I mean, I feel like with with all that it's created such a different climate than even when I was little, because there was kind of this main way that everybody did it, at least in country music, and that's what I was around. But now, it's like, once, once I started making my own music, I'm like, oh, wait a second, like, I can go over here and do this and, and make a lot more money doing this than if I was to sell off this percentage and do this. And so it's kind of learning more of the business aspect, honestly, is empowering for for an independent artist at the moment. And, and having that creative freedom to it's so important to me, because obviously, my music doesn't necessarily sound like what they're playing on Country radio right now. And not to say that I don't want to be on Country radio, because that's obviously a big huge goal of mine. But to be okay with my individual journey of getting there and forming my own path to get there because there's no one way to do it anymore.

Thomas Mooney 38:55

Yeah, like the, you have to think about like if if there if you were on a major label and they were really pushing you to make a certain record, you know, this record would more than likely not be the more the more cooks you get in the kitchen like the more like the less you have control of what you your original heard. I wanted to talk to you a second about podcasting and buzzsprout it feels like everyone has a podcast these days. It's been really great to see people use podcasting as a storytelling outlet ad to find like minded people. You may have seen new slang take a really big jump this past year and one of the main reasons has undoubtably been transitioning over to buzzsprout as my podcast host, they've really made all the quote unquote unfun things about podcasting so easy for starters. That's why new slang is on every major podcasting platform now and why it's been so uniform and organized online. I've always enjoyed speaking with songwriters bands and artists, that's a given. But now bus bra has made it so much easier on the publishing side. So if you've ever been interested in launching your own podcast, I'd highly recommend buzzsprout. Which if you follow the link in the show notes, you'll be able to a sign up with buzzsprout b be given a $20 amazon gift card and see help support new slang. Again, that link will be in the show notes. Have you ever watched the Eagles documentary like there's like this? Like I guess I had one. I watched it a few years back when I was sick. And like the one thing that like I remember, I remember who it was, it was either Glenn Frye or Don Henley. But they were talking about how, you know, they they moved to LA and they formed the band. And then they play around for a year. And then like then they signed a major label contract and started making records. And I thought like, Oh my gosh, like, that feels like I don't know if it was easier to get like on a to get recognized back. Yeah. Or if it was like so much harder. And they just like, we're a that talented and partly that lucky. But it just was like, the way they said it was so Matter of fact of like, yeah, we just practice basically a whole year playing live shows. And then like, I know, at the end of that we were rewarded in and it was like,

Jenny Tolman 41:26

Yeah, I've heard so many stories like that to where it almost does seem, I don't want to say easier to like brush it off. But but it does seem that it was easier in the sense that there wasn't as much saturation, I feel like there's, with all the different ways of putting yourself out there and releasing music that we have these days that are, you know, great, amazing tools that we have. It's also something that starts to clog the pipes a little bit and, and it makes it harder for any individual to get through. Because Yeah, I've, I've always wondered, I'm like, I wonder if you know, some of the legends that we have, like Johnny Cash and Merle Haggard, and, you know, so all of these huge, magnificent artists, what would they be like if they were plopped into today's way of doing it? Like if they had to start all over right now? Would they make it? Right? Cuz because there's so much and the world is so different on what they're willing to accept and put on a radio and label his country? You know?

Thomas Mooney 42:41

Yeah. And then also just like the way records were made back then versus they are Yeah, like how, one of the things that always kind of just blows my mind is if you look at so like, obviously, we were probably around the same age. And it's like, where, right now you can go on Spotify. And like you basically your entire life you've been you've had access to someone's entire catalogue of music, you know. And so that, like, whatever, if you just go and start listening to Willie Nelson, like, there's not a whole lot of difference, until you start really looking to see the differences between his first record and a record that came out in like 81, or something like that. So but like, I guess my bigger point on all this is that back then, they were churning out so much music, like a record a year. And, like now, like we the industry doesn't necessarily like push that as much as like, you have to put a record out every eight months.

Jenny Tolman 43:48

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Because I actually Dave and I'm a producer, we talked about that all the time, because we'll be listening to you know, like, seriously, Sinatra on XM or whatever it may be on a road trip. And they just have so many songs. And another thing too, is they all did so many classics, they all did the same covers, and right. Yeah, that was like a normal accepted thing. And, and people don't do that anymore these days now and that that's actually something that, you know, we've talked about just once we do put a record out every year, what if we, what if we do just have a constant stream of new music? Because I mean, why would Why would we not why would we have to follow these rules that have been put in place because it's actually the Wild West and the rules don't apply anyway. So if we've got music to release and we've got stuff to say and and you know when people are enjoying it, why ever halt it for a couple years, just to You know, ride out, whatever album you're on, if people are enjoying it, they'll, they'll keep listening to it, even when you release your new stuff, they'll keep going back to your previous records. And, and that's something to with making, there goes the neighborhood. This record, it was important that I wanted a really solid first statement. And I wanted something that people could keep going back to. And not just something that was like the flavor of the week, type of thing. So yeah, just kind of taking all those elements into consideration into making things that are substantial and lasting. More than just a certain record cycle.

Thomas Mooney 45:49

Yeah, it is. It's funny how, you know, you say like, there's these rules in place, but like, there's no real, like, rhyme or reason for them. And it's like, I guess there's technically some reason, but that is always one of those things that I, when I'm talking to an artist, and they're talking about, you know, oh, this record has been in the can for a year, and we're just looking for the right moments release that kind of thing. And you're kind of get like this like, Well, why are you letting too much of the business? get in the way of like, releasing records? Like, I get, like, yeah, you should, like you're looking for these prime moments. But like, if you're putting it off for so long, or like trying to find the right deal for it, it's sometimes you're going like, are you going to lose that moment? Are you going to like not really likely songs as much? Because like, you're already moved on to the next thing for you as an artist, you know, sometimes I feel like we let the the, like the business part get too too much in the way in our just general life? And it's,

Jenny Tolman 47:00

yeah, yeah, it's definitely a happy balance, you have to find because, I mean, at the end of the day, it's all about the music, that's why we're in it. But then there's also that business part attached to it. So having to, you know, be smart about strategically and all that stuff, it's, it's just definitely a balance. Because I know, personally, for me, as an artist, I've had so many different people come into my career for a brief amount of time and be like, Oh, hey, well, you know, we would if we took this clarinet out, and we just added in some more electric guitar and, and maybe like a drum loop, and so you know, changing, changing the music to get to the business and, and I've had to put my foot down so many times, like, Hey, there will be no business without the music. So I'm not going to make the music for the business. Yeah, you know, it's the, to me, it's, it's like they're the business is supposed to be built around. Supporting the music, not the other way around. And it seems like, recently, and it's probably I mean, for better, for worse, it's kind of probably always been this way, but it feels like even more. So now that music is running the business, or I'm sorry, business is running the music. Right? Yeah. Which, which seems backwards to make some like, Wait a second, it's kind of like don't bite the hand that fed you. Because, because your job wouldn't exist if you didn't have songwriters, if you didn't have you've creative that. You know, so, yeah, putting, but I mean, obviously, the business is very important. And we're mutually feeding off of each other. But I definitely feel like some more respect for the creative process and the music and, you know, not being so stressed out about like, well, it's got to be a four month release here and a six week thing here. And URLs, it's not gonna work. Right.

Thomas Mooney 49:16

Yeah. Like it's, it's, it's part of it is like the the putting the cart before the horse. You know, the cart is important too. But like, you're not gonna get anywhere without like, you know, the horse going. And, yeah, that's the, I guess, like part of it is like you're when you let all of that dictate your plans too much. You're kind of like scraping, just by every little part. Like it's just like, you're just scraping a little bit more of the magic of the artistic process away and it it makes it less fun.

Jenny Tolman 49:55

Yeah, when I think too, it's like, you've got to remember why you started Doing this in the first place. And that's, you know, it can be a cliche sometimes. But that question of why is always anything, that's the most important question to ask about anything, is, you know, why are you doing this? And or why is this happening? And what is your purpose. And into me, and I think to most artists, we started doing music to explore different emotions and to be empathetic, kind of, like you're alluding to earlier to help people work through certain things in their lives, or it's like, I know that if I'm playing a show, it's like, I want you to laugh with me, I want you to cry with me, I want like, you know, it's like, we're, it's a way for us to connect into, try to understand this weird, wacky world that we're all living in that we have no idea what's actually going on. And, and so to, for me to constantly be aware of that, and to never get sidetracked by, you know, like, Oh, I just want to be famous, or I just want to play to all these people so that they can gravel up my feet of gravel on my feet. And, and I feel like that is when you lose it, because that's when the business starts taking over. Because it's like, well, is that is this move trying to further my message and the best way possible? Or is it just trying to make money? And, and there's nothing wrong with making money at all. But just having the, you know, what, what's the end goal? Because, I mean, obviously, my end goal is definitely to make money, but also, I have this bigger meaning that I'm applying to why I'm doing it and, and the money is obviously just a benefit, or will be a benefit hopefully. And of, of our of our labors, you know, just just like any other job you've put work into, you get rewarded in certain ways. So I kind of started rambling off on that.

Thomas Mooney 52:18

No, but I mean, like, you mentioned something earlier that I wanted to go back to, and that is like, how has it always been this way. And part of me thinks that always has, but then also, I can't help but think that social media has, I don't know, like, made it into something else too. Because, like, where we're all like, just smarter about everything. Now, you know what I mean? Like, I guess back then, like, people were smart, like, oh, we're gonna send radio singles to all these DJs. And, you know, you there was pop sensibility back then, and all that kind of stuff. But now, like, you know, we're we're looking into analytics of Instagram posts, and social media posts in general. And like, maybe like, getting too smart about the way things are as as far as like the business side, that makes it really smart is a great way to put it. Because I always say, all of these new algorithms and the and everything like that, like, I understand that there is an element of,

Jenny Tolman 53:29

you know, being able to track and research and understand more stuff. But then it also can get away from us to where it's like, well, wait a second, this is a robot, deciding this and saying that this is the truth, but in reality, humans change their mind every millisecond, you know, we're, we're constantly evolving and thinking differently, you know, like, I think one thing today, I might think differently, the next thing, but a computer, it's like, oh, it gets its information, and it stores that and it downloads it, and it moves on from that decision. And so a lot of these algorithms and, and the social media and, and even the way that the streaming platforms work, sometimes it's like, well, these aren't actual humans, making these decisions. These are computers and computers don't have a soul. You know, they can't feel what this song might make a person feel. And but just because it doesn't have X beats per minute, it's not going to go on this playlist, because this algorithm says that it won't work. But what if this, what is the group of people actually listens to and was like, Oh, yeah, that's different, but we actually really like it. And so just just kind of that so I definitely agree with that. It can get too smart. It's too smart for our own good. Yeah, kind of like if we start replacing everybody's jobs with robots. Replace ourselves.

Thomas Mooney 54:58

Like that's the thing is Like where it was, I guess it was a while back, I was talking to a friend about how, you know, there's these programs that you can that will write like screenplays and for lightning for, you know, big movies and like they or they'll take a screenplay idea and run it through and, you know, they're just off. They're all like, slightly off like, and it's because they're not human. Yeah. And so like, they're they're getting better and better at it but like what it's more so is like what it's, it's, it's that that beats per minute thing that you're talking about, right? And I guess like in movies, they were talking about how, where he was he knows a lot more about this stuff in the in the movie, the film kind of stuff than I do. But he was talking about how, you know, they're a big box office hit has, you know, an explosion at x minute during the movie. And this is when this needs to happen. And it doesn't necessarily mean is dictating what the The plot is, but like those kind of like big action sequences. Wow, that's fascinating. That is such a, like, weird strangeness that. Yeah, I feel like we all can feel like you're just like, it's not human. It's it's not natural. And I don't know, like you You just kind of become hyper aware of like that weirdness in it? I don't know.

Jenny Tolman 56:33

Yeah, well, it's, it's removing emotions and soul out of it, which is, you know, it's so important for humans to have human connection, whether it's like physically or that subconscious level of knowing that, you know, there, there's a soul behind this, that somebody put their heart into this. And they made an effort, and they created this and they thought it through and they worked on it. And, you know, there's so much more value in that. Then if you know that, Oh, well, a robot just spit this out and for our viewing pleasure. And it's kind of almost insulting in a way because it's like, well, wait a second, aren't we better than that? Like, why don't we want humans to do it? Why don't we want to better ourselves and in creates and creation and, and challenge ourselves? As opposed to just having a computer that can do it instantly? Do it for us?

Thomas Mooney 57:38

Yeah. And it's also like, the, you know, by no means is any any of this stuff, like, you know, Oscar winning, or like Grammy winning stuff. That

Jenny Tolman 57:49

is right.

Thomas Mooney 57:50

But it also tells you like, that the average consumer is just like, okay with that kind of mediocrity, but I don't know, like, I also at the same time, I don't, I try and like, tell myself don't sell people short. Don't like dismiss them. Yeah, stupid.

Jenny Tolman 58:08

Yeah, I'm the same way. Because I have. I mean, I feel like if you're constantly from the music industry, people that like, audiences are dumb, they listen to whatever we tell them to listen to. And I'm like, Well, I guess, to a certain extent, I can understand that. I know that there is like a scientific process that if somebody hears something this many times and it's just going to become okay to them, you know, and it's going to become normalized, and your brain is going to just kind of whatever it but I feel like if people are presented with options of quality, they're always going to be aware of what quality is better and, and maybe not even knowing consciously why they like something more than another. I just, you know, I'm, I'm like you, I'm like, I've got to believe that. People like humans, we have souls and we and we are spiritual beings, and we can feel connections, whether we are aware of it or not, and there's just certain things about music or movies or emotions, or whatever it is that make us feel a certain way or that bring us a certain emotion. And so I always get really, I'm like, people aren't as stupid as they're made out to be. They just aren't being given any other choice. You know, and, and, and it's kind of I mean, with a lot of things in life. It's like, well, what are they they've got lives to live, they've got jobs to do, they don't have time to worry about. Well, is this music I'm being fed, good quality is it, it doesn't have a good message, you know, it's like, that's not their job, it's our job as the creator to make sure that we're giving them the best that we possibly can just like, if they're building a house, it's their job to make sure that they're building the best quality house that they possibly can, you know, and so I think it's a lot of it's just kind of, I guess, to museum today, it's like, respect, like, I respect my audience, I don't think that they're done. That's why I can, in my album, I can talk about these gossipy ideas in these small town things, because I'm not trying to disrespect it at all, I'm actually putting a microscope on it and honoring it in the best way that I can. And, you know, and exploring it, and what the different levels of it all means. And you can get really weird and heady. But yeah, it's just I don't think, I don't think people are given enough credit.

Thomas Mooney 1:01:06

Yeah, you know, like, what I would combat that with is that it's not that people are dumb, it's that people don't, the average person doesn't have enough time. Because Yeah, like you said, like the living other life kind of thing. And that's something that I had I came around a while back on is that, you know, the, the average person is not like me or you where we're at, we have just time to listen to music, and you know, overanalyze and listen to just all kinds of music for the most part, you know, people have like nine to five jobs, and they've got kids to take to soccer practice, and they've got dinner to cook for a family and they've got like, all these things. While you know, me at the end of the day, like, I am talking about music with people. And so that means I can just, I can just listen to a lot more music and I can like, over analyze music, and I can just dive deep into these albums that are not necessarily being played on their top 40 radio station, that is their hometown station or whatever, they are not necessarily in town anymore, but you know what I'm saying? So, yeah, it's Yeah, it's just the I don't know, we need we need to all I guess, give more people credit because like, once they do find these other artists that you've seen it a million times on social media people going, wherever, how did I not know about insert name here until, you know, and oh, man, I've, since I've discovered this side of country music or Americana, or whatever the case is, you know, yeah. So

Jenny Tolman 1:02:56

yeah, and it's funny, because some of them will get mad when when they have, like a secret artists that they don't, that nobody else knows about to them. And, and then the artist goes and signs a record deal. And they get on the radio, and everybody's a huge fan. They're like, Well, wait a second. That's funny, and sweet to like, yeah, appreciate.

Thomas Mooney 1:03:22

So it's so strange, because it's like, you wanted to keep that secret to yourself. Yeah, this is my my thing for them. Yeah.

Jenny Tolman 1:03:38

Yeah. certain situation.

Thomas Mooney 1:03:41

Yeah, I was gonna I was want to ask you a few last questions about your songwriting process. Because I find a lot of that really interesting with with artists and modern songwriting I guess. So for you, do you like to like sit down with, you know, a notebook or something in your like, hypothetical best case scenario? Are you like a notebook writer? Are you a laptop writer? a? Do you write on your phone? Like what is your like? This setup? Best case scenario setup?

Jenny Tolman 1:04:17

Oh, man, that's a tough one. Because it's never the same. I mean, I've used journals, I've used laptops, but I would say for the most part, I use my computer. And I generally, generally tend to write lyrics first. But then I do I kind of as I'm writing the lyrics, the melody comes at the same time, but I'm thinking about the lyric more so. But, I mean, it also just depends on who I'm writing with. If I have Co writer just by myself, says, you know, a lot of a lot of the time, I'll write by myself, and then I'll have something and I love it. And then the next day, I'll hate it. So I love. I love co writing, too. Just to have that extra set of ears to be like, wait, well, it made me this isn't that great. And then to have their talents as well help the song out. So, yeah, it's really, I don't know, I don't have a good answer, because I'm just all over the place.

Thomas Mooney 1:05:36

Yeah, it's, it's always, you know, it's funny about the loving and then the hating it thing is that I've, I've been fortunate enough to like, watch some co writes with some, like, friends and stuff like that. And it's sometimes it's, I think people were, it would be surprised a on how sometimes it can be real technical as they're writing. But what I think like, more times more often than not, that most people like transform into this, like, manic state of in a way, where like, especially if you're really excited about a song, and then like, after they get like this, like writer's high after. And then you talk to them later about it, like a week later. And they're all Well, I don't know about all I don't know about that. And you're like, yeah, if you saw like, like, why you were back then? Like, what you're writing it? I don't know, like, what what change but like, of course, like you just like start over at, you know, over it not necessarily over editing, yeah, overthinking about it, and stuff like that. And it's such a weird thing. When you get into it, it happens a lot. Yeah. When you go into a co write, or you typically like, do you like to have some idea of like, what your ideas are? Even if it means like having part of it written? Or do you like to go and like, Hey, I just have this idea.

Jenny Tolman 1:07:03

Yeah, so I, I do not like going in without anything at all, because then I just feel like a loser. But I definitely have done that before. But I always try to at least have like, a song title or an idea of some sort to bring. And then also, another element that I take into songwriting is, what do I need to make my show even better? Because that's a whole nother element. To my career, that's a huge, important element, even beyond the record is the live show and entertaining people. And so I'm always kind of taking into consideration like, will do I, quote, unquote, need anything like, do I need a little more upbeat over here? Do I need to have a ballad here, because, you know, Dave, my producer, he talks about like peaks and valleys throughout a record, because you can't have everything, just pounding the pavement the same way, because it's just gonna get really old, and you're gonna lose your listener, you need to have peaks and valleys so that it's like kind of cleansing the palate during your courses. So that's what I try to do for my live show as well. And so yeah, just kind of conscious of that. And then also, you know, what do I have too much of Do I have too much of this process of the small town stuff at the moment? Do I need to take a little less turn down here and start a new chapter have a whole new character, you know, so just kind of evaluating what, what the what the needs of my career and the album, show and everything. And then some days, they're just like, you know, what, screw it. I want to write about this, or I feel this really deeply today. And so I'm going to talk about this. And then maybe the song never sees the light of day, but they've healed me in that moment, or they healed my co writer in that one. So it's just kind of whatever the moment brings to you, which sounds really weird and hippie dippie.

Thomas Mooney 1:09:19

One of my favorite, one of my favorite songs from the band spoon is the song called the underdog. And in this song, like he has this lie about, it all can't be wedding cake. And like, that's what I feel it is is like he can't all be like the the intimate, slow ballad and it can all be the super fun, like chorus, where you know, it's like very Poppy and because if it gets too much of one thing, you do get a little bit of like an ear fatigue or something, you know, so.

Jenny Tolman 1:09:55

Yeah, and it's and it's so easy to be pigeonholed these days. As like, Oh, well, this is what she does. And I don't want to be like, I want to be able to put out songs like There goes the neighborhood and then turn around and put out a song. Like so pretty, you know, they're they're so different from each other, but they're on the same album. And they're, and they're both very authentically me. And because I mean, people have so many different facets to them. We all have so many different characteristics. We're not just like, Oh, well, this is the way that we act all the time. Right? Yeah.

Thomas Mooney 1:10:34

Like it's, this isn't your one trick. Yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah.

Jenny Tolman 1:10:40

Yeah, so just kind of defining like, Well, hey, before you put me into this box, like, just know that I can also do this, and I'm going to do this as well.

Thomas Mooney 1:10:52

You mentioned you like writing those songs that, that you just need to get written that may not even see ever see the light of day, but that that you just you wind up writing? Because like you needed to get it out there? Do you feel like that's part of the prot like the larger process of like, yeah, I sometimes this needs to be written to get to this point.

Jenny Tolman 1:11:15

Yeah, I definitely think that that's the thing, you know, I think we all have different conversations, or activities, or whatever it may be, that are not the focal point of our lives, but they help us get to where we need to be. And, yeah, I think that that's definitely a huge aspect of songwriting, because obviously, songwriters, for the most part, very emotional people. A little overly emotional sometimes, but just it, you know, the foundation of songwriting is having a way to have an outlet for what you're feeling, whether it's joy, whether it's pain, you know, and just kind of respecting that and doing what you need to do to take care of yourself mentally, or your friends, who are your co writers, you know, it's just back to that whatever is the calling of that moment, that needs to happen. And it's usually pretty obvious. When you're, when you're in that state, you know, if, if you're feeling something that heavily, it's going to come to you and it's going to come out, and it's going to, whether it's pretty or not. Ready or not, here it comes.

Thomas Mooney 1:12:45

Now, obviously, like, the the creative process, like it's not, as is as easy as trying to schedule it out. It's not like, you know, you get these ideas, and they may happen, and you're like, Oh, I got to write about this. But in saying that, you try and get like, in a routine of, like, I try and write, or at least work or something, be in the moment, you know, this time of the day, every day, or like, a couple times what is like you try and like, I guess make it fit in within a routine or is it more you let it be a lot more spontaneous than that.

Jenny Tolman 1:13:26

I'm a little bit of both, you know, like, when I obviously when I'm co writing, those are scheduled, and I try to have a couple of those a week. But even that, it's like, I feel like after, if you start forcing it too much, I start to really dislike it. It starts to become a burden to me almost because I'm not enjoying it. It's more so like, and that's an I mean, it's a job at sometimes you just have to do your job and in force yourself to you know, like suck it up, Buttercup. Got to do this today. And it's your job. So there's an element of that. But then I do like to I mean, when I'm writing by myself, I like to write at night a lot of time by myself that's kind of my my time to myself to kind of process like okay, what happened today like what what am I feeling what's bothering me, or what am I excited about? So I guess it's kind of like, like a normal person would have like a diary or journal entries they might do to kind of process their thoughts and stuff. I just have it in the in the songwriting way. It's just not it's not always anything that I ever want anybody to hear because it could be pretty terrible.

Thomas Mooney 1:14:55

I feel like most people don't realize that like just coming from As a writer, a journalist on my side, sometimes like, you're trying to make a point, and you're trying to get something out and like it's just not working. And my trick is to always just, like, dumb it down and just say it in is like, just say what you're trying to say. And then like, you can go back and try and make it more, I don't know, flowery. But sometimes you just have to just just say it and like, just get it over with to get on to the other parts. So, I don't know.

Jenny Tolman 1:15:31

Very true.

Thomas Mooney 1:15:33

yeah, it's been really, really great talking with you today about Okay, that about does it for this episode. Thank you for listening. Go check out Jenny Tolman's album. There goes the neighborhood. Check out episode sponsor, the blue light live and Tom's Daiquiri. And I'll see you later this week for another episode.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai