103: Samantha Crain

On Episode 103, I'm joined by Oklahoma singer-songwriter Samantha Crain. Crain is releasing A Small Death, her forthcoming album, Friday, July 17. Over the course of 11 tracks, Crain leads us on through a deeply personal collection of songs where she cries, mourns, confronts, perseveres, and presses on. For Crain, the last handful of years have been filled with setbacks and anguish as she battled depression, anxiety, and trauma as a result of a series of car wrecks. Tendinitis and carpal tunnel syndrome made playing guitar virtually impossible and left Crain questioning herself as an artist. Slowly but surely though, Crain has been able to adapt and begin anew--hence, A Small Death and rebirth for Crain. She captures flashes of previous misery and dread throughout with dark textures, droning effects, and a fever-dream haze. Still, Crain doesn't just float around in the darkest experiences without reason. Much of A Small Death sees her processing the doom and darkness and searching for the light. Speaking with Crain, it's that much more apparent. She's excited and optimistic as she's shedding the cocoon of the last few years.

This episode's presenting partner is The Blue Light Live and Wicker's Mesquite Smoked Jalapeno Jelly.

Interview Transcript

Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.

Thomas Mooney 0:00

Everyone, welcome to another New slang interview. I'm your host music journalist Thomas Mooney. We start off the week with Episode 103, where I am joined by Oklahoma singer songwriter Samantha Crain. Samantha is releasing her newest album, a small death this Friday, July 17. I always really like these albums where you're really able to get lost within them, you throw it on, and there's these moments where you kind of just zone out because of a droning effect or something. During the conversation with Samantha, I asked her about this fever, Dream feel, also kind of describe it as where you're like swimming in open water, and you're never really able to see what's below you. I hate to say that there's an uneasiness to this record, but she does is like really incredible job of getting you to fall into a rhythm and then becoming hyper aware of that feeling. There's a strangeness to it, but she uses it with great effect to conjure this dread and anguish that she's channeling in some of the songs. Much of if not all of this album is really about the last few years in Samantha's life. She most definitely went through this dark period, something that she's called a full on breakdown. She's had a handful of car wrecks that left her both physically and mentally drained and in pain, she was unable to play guitar. And you can feel that identity crisis in some of these songs where she's left with a ton of questions and not many answers. She has learned how to play guitar since then, in a in a way that where she's not feeling like her hands are just completely numb at at an end of a of a 30 minute set a lot of songwriters, they'll say that the songwriting process, that process of creating any kind of art, really, that it's a cathartic process where you're able to make sense of things in your life. And that's really how a small death was created. It's very much informed by these last few years. But as you'll hear Samantha say in the interview, it's not all doom and gloom, you hear an optimism and an understanding and her voice. The songs are also about her rebirth and further understanding who she is and who she wants to be. The album isn't out until the end of the week, but if you want to get a sense of the album, go check out the songs garden dove and past time. Those are two of my favorites on the album. Before we get right into the interview, I wanted to talk to you a second about podcasting and buzzsprout it feels like everyone has a podcast these days. It's been really great to see people use podcasting as a storytelling outlet and to find like minded people, you may have seen new slang take a really big jump this past year, and one of the main reasons has undoubtably been transitioning over to buzzsprout as my podcast host, they've really made all the quote unquote unfun things about podcasting so easy. For starters. That's why new slang is on every major podcasting platform now, and why it's been so uniform and organized online. I've always enjoyed speaking with songwriters and bands and artists, that's a given. But now buzzsprout has made it so much easier on the publishing side. So if you've ever been interested in launching your own podcast, I'd highly recommend buzzsprout which if you follow the link in the show notes, you'll be able to a sign up with buzzsprout v be given a $20 amazon gift card and see help support new slang. Again that link will be in the show notes. If this is your first time listening to new slang, please hit that subscribe button. New slang is on all major podcast platforms so I highly encourage you to subscribe while you're at it. Give the podcast a five star rating leave a review telling us what you like most speaking of liking new slang stuff go hit up the new slang store for your merch needs. I have a handful of items in the store right now. And while I may not see much, you getting a koozie or a magnet or whatever it does help keep the lights on I'll throw a link into the show notes for easy access. Alright, enough of the housekeeping notes here is Samantha crane. Yeah, okay, I guess like let's just go ahead and start off with obviously, you have this record that you've been working on. And I guess initially you were going to release it a few months back. And with this quarantine with all of the social distancing the pandemic in general, you push the release date back, I guess like what went all into a pushing the date back and then also, you know, like, you've been working on this record and then all of a sudden, like, you're ready to release it and then you have to hit like, as you said earlier, a great pause.

Samantha Crain 4:40

Yeah, it's um, well, yeah, so originally this this record was meant to come out may 1. Whenever I was overseas, doing some tour dates in March whenever the borders started shutting down, and And travel became impossible. And so I kind of rushed home, not really knowing what was going on, and kind of just talked to like my labels, my booking agents, because I mean, there's no like precedent for what you do like with something like this. In the world of like independent musicians who rely pretty heavily on touring in order to, like, promote a record, um, if you're putting a record out without touring, it feels like everyone just took all of their time and money and energy and like decided to burn it in a chimney or something like. So I think that was like our, our idea in trying to move the release back was okay, hopefully, things reopen, and we can reschedule tours and you know, kind of give the album a fighting chance at actually getting out there. That really didn't end up happening. Like we've had to cancel the tour again, and things still are pretty shut down. So, but I think at this point, I was just like, I just need to get it out because I have I did this record, like I recorded this record almost a year ago now. So I'm, and I'm already like, moved on in my, in my head. I use like writing as a cathartic thing, when once I've already like, process something, I use the writing and recording of music to move on from it in my life. So I just felt like this record, although it is, like my favorite record, I've made an the most important to me record that I've made. I'm also just like, ready to move on from from that point. So I we kind of just decided, like, we're gonna, we're just gonna put it out and it whatever happens, will will happen. But it is kind of a bummer not to be able to like, tour and try to, I guess, get the word out about it in that way. So, but you know, it is what it is, you know, we're all just kind of like making it up as we go. I think.

Thomas Mooney 7:39

Yeah, it's so interesting on obviously, we have this great technology, the internet and being able to order any kind of merge online is such a luxury that you can have. But still, it seems like at the end of the day, people buy records at shows still. And that's like the thing that's been going on since the, you know, the beginning of, of making records, you know, and I don't know, it's, it's, you know, I don't know, like, it must feel like you're just kind of like in limbo in a in an ass in a way of, of just where you don't know if it's too early, too soon, too late to release something. And so you just, you know, it's, it's just better to just get it out now and just see where it goes, I guess you know.

Samantha Crain 8:37

Yeah, I mean, well, what you were saying about like, people just buy records that shows it's because I mean, it's part of the reason why I haven't really been super active in the online concert thing like streaming concert. There's just something about like a live show that was like why I got into music You know, it's about like sharing space with people and that's why people buy records at shows because they're like, high off of that feeling of like sharing a common space and time and energy and place with the other people there and they want to like they're like what else can I do to like prolong this and and buying records you know from the band while they're there is one of those things and so there's just I mean, we do have the internet as a tool for for artists like in this time whenever like our income was just like completely you know, snatched up from from this pandemic, but it's just not like the same and I think it has a lot of people like me sort of trying to find other avenues because the internet just like it is not a connector and the way that actually sharing space with people is.

Thomas Mooney 10:06

Yeah, it's, you know, like, obviously, you've seen a whole lot of people do the, the streaming shows and adapt and find other ways to, to play. But it it's one of those things where I kind of connected still to, whenever you put a record on versus when you're streaming something on Spotify, there is a little bit of like a slight disconnect. There's, there's something as you as you said, like, there's something in the air, whenever you see somebody play live, and you just feel the, that you feel nessus like it's necessary to buy something or if you if you're connected to it, or you know, I'm saying like, there is, I don't know what it is like, why there's because even for me, I've not really watched a whole lot of these streaming shows, because I don't know, I don't, it doesn't feel the same.

Samantha Crain 11:02

Yeah, I think it's just it goes down to like attention. Like, it's really easy to split your attention up between different things whenever you're just like, at home, trying to like, like, I've watched a couple of streaming shows, like for artists that I really like, and I've enjoyed them, but I've also like, put it on my calendar and like, went home and like popped it up on my screen and like got a beer and treated it kind of like a show and that's why I enjoyed it. Um, but I think the attention thing is, is where it's at, like, if you're just watching it on your phone, while you're also you know, just like stopped at a stoplight or waiting in the waiting room to add a doctor's office or something, you know, your whole attention isn't, isn't into that. So it just becomes like, part of the the world of like content that you're, you know, constantly taking in. So I think that's what a show has, you know, it's that giving your whole attention over to it.

Thomas Mooney 12:10

Yeah, I've talked with a few artists about how I guess they've had to adapt in how initially, when they first started doing these, how strange it was to finish a song and they're like, not be any kind of, you know, anything, any kind of clapping any kind of commentary. And then like, it's kind of funny, like how all you're seeing is just like these comments, scroll through the screen and like they lean in and they're trying to read and try to figure out what's going on. It's like, it's such a just, it's something totally different than, than the usual. I want to go back to something you said a minute ago about how, you know, you, you writing is a cathartic process for you. Obviously, it feels like when, to me, I guess it feels like a lot of times an artist of record will be will have like a time limit. Where you do move on, and especially since you've been with the songs a whole lot longer than the general public. Has that always been the case for you with, with your music going back as far as you can remember?

Samantha Crain 13:28

I don't know, I've never really been self aware enough to think about that. I think I think I only thought about it this time around because, um, because of sort of the process of releasing it and feeling that tension of I just need to get this record out. And having all this time to sit and think I think this was the first time that I was really self aware enough of that process within myself, at least with this record of of how and how these songs came about. It wasn't. And I also noticed that a bit like at the beginning of, of the sort of pandemic when people started quarantining and things and people were stuck at home. I noticed a lot of artists immediately like getting online and being like, Look, I we just like made this record this week. And we just wrote this song today. And we just made this painting and we did and I was just like, how are people like creating right now like, I'm still trying to figure out what's going on. And then it was like really apparent to me that artists use creating for different reasons, like different artists have different purposes for it. Some artists use that that creative time. to process things while they're going through while they're going through it. Some artists use the creative process as a cathartic thing, which is they've already spent the time sitting and thinking about things, tossing things over in their head, figuring out what it is that they're thinking about, and how they feel about it. And then using the creative process, to move on from it. And I never really thought about it from that stand point, I guess, from that, kind of dissecting it like that, until this, this particular record and the release. So it's really hard for me to go back and put myself in, in the position of, or like the mindset of writing my past records and knowing like, why I was doing it, or how I felt, I feel like I've always kind of been like a heavy processor, like somebody who gets really quiet whenever they're thinking about things and removes myself from a group whenever I'm like, really mulling over things in my head. So I think it's really possible that that's, I've always used music more as a cathartic thing than as a processing tool. But I can't say for sure.

Thomas Mooney 16:20

Yeah, that's a really interesting observation about how artists have been using this quarantine. Because I guess like, that's something that I've, I've always kind of picked up on, but like, you put it in probably better words. It, it's almost like not to, like just split it up into two categories. But it's almost like we're some songwriters, or artists. The, the the art is like the beginning stages of processing. And then sometimes for others, it's like, kind of like that final stamp of putting it all together. So I don't know, that's, that's really interesting. I have seen how a lot of artists have, I guess, like in this past few months talking with people. I've seen some people talk about how they've started writing a book or they've started painting or they've started drawing or working on other creative outlets. Has that happened with you? Have you had any kind of of that artistic space for other channels, other avenues?

Samantha Crain 17:31

Um, yes, but I'm always kind of doing that I music is definitely like the biggest part of my, I won't say biggest, but like the most noticeable part of like, my creative life, it's how I mainly, like make a living. But I'm always like, part of my writing process is like all of the life that I live in between writing and recording. And that has a large amount of other creative stuff going on just because to me, that's that, like, puts me in the right frame of mind to keep making music. And what that includes is making other things too. So I'm always kind of dabbling in other stuff, not necessarily that I use it. monetarily, it's just like, letting the work be enough and enjoying that process. So like painting, I've recently gotten into basket making, writing things other than songs I've done like a book of sonnets. So yeah, I mean, I'm always just kind of making things it's, it's just what it's just what I like to do. So I find it to be an adjoining practice to like, whatever somebody's main creative practices, I think there's sort of this time that I think a lot of people call writer's block that I don't like actually think exists, I think what that is, is just like and there's like an active and a non active part of writing. And that writer's block part is just what I consider like the inactive part of writing, which is you're building up a well of ideas and things that will eventually move into the active part of writing and it doesn't always take the same shape or form in terms of like links or time or anything like that. So, um, yeah, I can totally see that during this time. If If making music doesn't feel right. Or somebody hasn't entered into that active stage of writing. creating something else can be really helpful, I think in in kind of moving things along.

Thomas Mooney 20:17

I think like, it's, it's one of those things where the average person kind of, to understand what an artist does is, is it's easy to, to, I guess, categorize you guys as songwriter, poet, painter, sculptor. And I guess like, what I'm saying is talking with some other artists, it's, they've never really even thought of it like that they are, they're just an artist that creates and it doesn't, some things go towards whatever, you know, and some some things become song, some things become a painting, some things become whatever, they're whatever they're they they go into. And

it's, it's,

I don't know, like, it's just, it's really interesting to me to see how an artist will just view themselves as an artist versus trying to like get it down into I'm just a songwriter, or I'm just a short story writer, or whatever the case is.

Samantha Crain 21:32

Yeah, I think that that that idea of pigeon holing yourself is is mainly like, I mean, I'm not trying to get like, political or anything here. But it's mainly like a Western capitalist idea. It's like, people call themselves whatever the thing is, that brings in their paycheck, they don't think of themselves outside of their worth as a worker. So that's why I think a lot of people tend to like, it's really, it would be really easy for me just to say I'm a musician, because that's what brings in my income. But I don't think it would be correct, because I spend an equal percentage of my time doing other things and being other things. So I just think that that idea is probably something to like, unpack within and within people like no notifying, or noticing their worth outside of just like what brings in their paycheck.

Thomas Mooney 22:37

Yeah, yeah. That's, I mean, the other day, I was talking with another songwriter who she had mentioned the I guess like it goes to this whole thing about Worthing that you're talking about, where you saw a lot of frustration from you've seen frustration from people in general during all this, because they feel like they need to be out in working and they need to be out in the doing whatever they do. And they're wanting to, you know, in the quarantine and and just open the economy back up. This is a couple months back now, I guess, where it was really we were really shut down. And she was talking about how the reason why she thought people were so frustrated was because so much of their sense of worth is tied to what brings their income and or what they are able to produce. And I don't know, I felt like that was really insightful. And yeah, you talking about, you know, that being kind of a Western thing. It makes a lot of sense. I mean, I, I I don't know it. I really, I don't know I really like that thought I guess. This episode is sponsored by the blue light live my all time favorite music venue in bar. As you know, the covid 19 pandemic has been difficult on small businesses, music venues, bars and musicians. There are a handful of ways that you can help though. For starters, go over to www dot blue light lubbock.com. Click on the merge tab at the top of the page and order yourself a blue light hat t shirt in koozie Second, if you haven't purchased Monday night lights, a 50 song compilation of Lubbock songwriters organized by songwriter and photographer extraordinary Charlie stout and myself head over to www dot Monday night lights.com. The proceeds of this 50 song collection go directly to the bartending staff. We launched it a few months back and we were blown away by the response and reception and of course if you're just hearing about it now go ahead and get it today. This collection will never be on iTunes or on Apple Music. So the only spot you'll be able to get it at is at Monday. Night lights.com I'll throw both links into the show notes for easy access. All right, back to the show. Now, obviously, like this record, you know, it so much of this is about, I guess, like, has been about these, you know, these car accidents and not being able to play and having to kind of like, you know, sit down your instrument and having like the, I guess like the toll physically and and mentally. Now, obviously, I want to like tie this back to this, this question about identity. You have seen yourself as an artist, and I guess like with, whenever you're when you take something away as a tool of a processing tool, as a part of your income, what you enjoy, I guess, like what kind of toll has had has that had on? on you?

Samantha Crain 26:06

Yeah, I mean, that was that what you are describing is, is pretty much the the birth of this record, like whenever I did get to a point where my hands stopped working because of these different health issues, and the car wrecks and a bunch of sort of psychosomatic mental breakdown sort of things. Um, yeah, basically, you have been, well, eventually, if you're lucky, if you can get out of that very, very dark period, you start to kind of search for and learn about who you are as a person outside of, sort of, might like myself appointment and identification as the musician Samantha crane, which is just kind of like we all do that we all have to form a sense of self in order just to move through the world in a survivable state, I think. And so when that starts to break down, when that gets taken away that identity, it becomes like a really hard thing. And you're, you're faced with that really uncomfortable position of getting to know yourself sort of from scratch. And so kind of like peeling off a costume that you're like putting as a child, and then like, allowing yourself for the first time to kind of like dress yourself and like fully lean into, like, all of your curiosities and sensitive sensitivities, things like that. So that can be really hard. But eventually, I think the excitement of that, that you get really giddy, and there's like, these really sort of audacious stages of life, where you just find all of these new facets of yourself, which is really exciting. And that's sort of what led to this record. I mean, the story behind the record, and the songs are quite sad and traumatic, but I don't necessarily think that the record is sad, because what it's showing what the thing that it was born from, is, is that feeling of finding joy again, through this process, so yeah, I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head in terms of what the what the birth of this record was, and the feeling that that produces.

Thomas Mooney 28:51

Yeah, it's it's weird because like, you say, you know, these dark moments these these Yeah, it has to be frustrating and uncomfortable, but at the same time there is that you're finding your your sea legs, I guess, and you're realizing like, Oh, this is it's going to be okay. It's not going to be like this forever. Was there a moment that you can like point to that was like, where it was evident that like you, you were, like, I guess you know, finding yourself and getting back. Not just not to say normal, but getting to a place of normalcy, I guess.

Samantha Crain 29:45

Well,

I so whenever I was at the beginning of this sort of period in my life, I was more or less like bedridden like I wasn't like leaving my house, I was just like, shut down. Eventually, I just was like, I don't want to live my life like this What are the steps that I need to take in order to? To get out of this? So you know, that for me meant finding different therapies to go to, to recover both mental and physical therapies. And one of the things that one of my therapists suggested, for me was walking. And I was just like, I don't understand what you're asking, you just want me to, like, go on walks. And I live in Oklahoma, where it's not like a super walk friendly. area, you know, like, everyone drives cars. There's not like, very common to, there's not like sidewalks and most places and stuff. So um, she was like, yeah, it's it's meditative. It helps you figure out like what your hangups are, in that sense being like, whenever you start thinking about something, and it's just like nagging you and nagging you, then just walk until it leaves your your head and whatever way that you, you know, work through that. And I started doing that, mainly because I, I would go on these really long walks, whenever I lived, other places, or whenever I would be on tour in Europe or something, I would walk a lot, just to kind of get ready before show reset things. And so I did think that it would be helpful. And I just started doing that I started just going on these really long walks and working through a lot of my sort of like hang ups about what was causing different different stress points and things like that. And, you know, it would be sometimes it would just be like a mile, sometimes I went in that being six or seven miles. And I think that's whenever I started feeling like at least I had a tool to like, move forward in my life. Whereas before I was using things that were like short fixes, like, you know, drinking too much, or like ordering some, like gross pizza at three in the morning or something or, like, all of these things that were, you know, quick sort of problem solvers to get my mind off something. What I found at that moment was out, I might have like found like an actual tool that I can use, like for the rest of my life to make sure that I don't get like in a spot, this dark again. And that felt really good to me. I mean, in past that that was like pretty early in the process of all of this. But like, whenever I did start getting use of my hands again and start playing guitar again, I I went on this short tour opening for the mountain goats. And then right after that, I did a house show tour. And there was this moment where I was just like on the house show tours, I would just sit in someone's living room without like a PA or anything. And I had my guitar just like on my lap, and I was playing and there was this moment, during one of the sets, I just like leaned my head on the saddle of the guitar body, and just like felt the vibrations of it, like kind of moving through my face. And it was so moving to me. And I just realized it was just like this really special moment of kind of getting back to that feeling of why I started like writing songs in the first place, which was, you know, to make this to make a connection with people. And at that moment what I what I felt was like this instrument, you know, causing these vibrations through my arms in my head and everything and knowing like how special that moment was that I was getting to do that again, whenever I thought that I wasn't ever going to be able to play guitar again.

So yeah, I mean, those are like two moments in my head that sort of stand out as real sort of bright lights of moving forward. I think.

Thomas Mooney 34:51

Yeah, we just have like, I guess it's human nature. And then also just like the society we live in, you're always kind of taught to just find the quick fix, you know, that's the reason why people smoke cigarettes, you know, just that little bit of to take whatever attention away. And then I guess the, you know, like, we never really look for what are the long term fixes? So yeah, it's it's the walking Did you? was it? Was it a lot of like just silent walking? Or did you? You know, were you playing music or podcasts or anything like that? What was your kind of your your go to when it came to that?

Samantha Crain 35:40

Um, I think at the beginning Yeah, I was just silent. I mean, I this is still like a thing I do every day. Like I walk about six miles a day still. And I'm at the point now where sometimes I listen to podcasts and music and stuff. But I think when I first started doing it, it was just like, no headphones. It was mainly because I, I didn't know where to walk it. And I was afraid I was gonna get ran over. I think I was just kind of like, I think I was freaked out that if I had headphones on that, like a, you know, a giant Ford Ford F 350 truck would like run me over because they aren't used to seeing people walking. So I didn't I didn't have headphones. But it also helped I think with the meditative process of it. Just not having music and stuff. But now that I know where to walk and not get ran over plus the town that I live in now is has built a lot of sidewalks recently. So it's been really helpful for me, but um, yeah, I think at the time, I was just kind of walking in silence. But now I I kind of switch it up depending on my mood.

Thomas Mooney 36:56

Yeah. Yeah, it's I live in a I live in Lubbock, so it's not very Walker friendly, either. Yeah. And it's Yeah, I don't know. It's, it's, uh, I don't know. But one of the things I was going to ask about was the, the, the physical aspects like, you know, you were not you had to you couldn't really play guitar. Did you have to, like re I guess like, how did that change the way you played guitar? Or? Or did it?

Samantha Crain 37:28

Oh, yeah, it completely did like, because even though I can, even though I have like feeling in my hands again, and I still have pretty, pretty bad tendonitis and carpal tunnel that I still deal with it. But and basically what what I've started doing, just to kind of, hopefully not get into a spot where my hands get that bad again, is I've started like writing and open tunings a lot more. So my, my hands aren't like, holding down, you know, barred chords all the time and things that would, you know, cause like, tension to like nerves and muscles around my hand. So a lot of a lot more open tuning stuff. So that way my hands just get like a break during songs, right? That's the main thing, which I just like, never did open tunings before that, really, but whenever I started having these issues, that was something that I noticed helped helps me a lot more. So that's something that I've been working in a lot more, which has changed the way that I write songs too. It's kind of hilarious. Really, it's, um, it's it's hard to call like, really awful things that happened to you. Like blessing in disguise is because it feels like so cliche and stuff, but there are like really interesting things that have happened due to this, you know, like I, I've written a lot I've, I think grown as a writer in a lot of ways because of this, because I've kind of been forced to, to learn how to play the guitar in a different way. Which is interesting.

Thomas Mooney 39:20

Yeah, well, I was gonna say like, has it affected like the writing process and has it what is it done to older songs has it how do you what do you do then with older songs?

Samantha Crain 39:34

Um, I mean, so it's really interesting because this this year was supposed to be the year that I was gonna get back into really like full on touring. And like doing headlining shows like full hour and a half sets. But really, I haven't tested out like what what that's like doing like a full set over and over and over for like an extended amount of time because since 2017 when when I had to start canceling tours because of my my hand issues, I've really only done sort of short tours opening for other artists. So those are like 3045 minutes up, it's it's really not enough time for my hands to really start, like getting affected. So it's kind of interesting like I in those sets, I would play older songs, but I would kind of make my setlist to where if I had a song that was going to be you know, a lot of Bard chords or something, then I would do like, a, an easier open tuning type song next. So just to give my hands like a break for a song, that sort of thing. And that's an easy set to make if you're just trying to figure out 30 or 45 minutes plus I talk a lot during my sets to like I tell stories and, and things so that's a break as well. But yeah, I haven't actually got to try out how it's gonna start affecting me in the long run is like a headlining artist who has to do like, hour and a half long sets for, uh, you know, every night for two months or something. Um, that was kind of what this record and the chores surrounding this record were supposed to be the first sort of glimpses into that so I'll let you know whenever we get back around to touring.

Thomas Mooney 41:51

Yeah, I kind of figured it would be one of those things where like, you weren't changing songs necessarily, but you were just like spacing them out differently. Yeah. This episode is sponsored by wickers musky smoked jalapeno jelly. It's owned and operated by my buddy West wicker, who makes the jelly in small batches for the best quality and freshness. He smokes the peppers with mesquite and uses pure cane sugar to make the jelly. What you get is this great blend of smoky sweet and spicy. It's addictively savory, for those uninitiated, workers is a great addition to any chef's kitchen. Part of what makes wicker so great is just how versatile It really is. For starters, it makes a great meat glaze, throw it on a batch of hot wings, use it on some pork ribs, support chops, really whatever you can think of it on biscuits, corn, bread, bagels or toast, throw it on a ham or turkey sandwich. Another super simple but effective way is to get some cream cheese, throw some workers on top and then grab your favorite cracker wiggers is currently stocked at a handful of places in Lubbock and on the South Plains, as well as support worth in DFW locations. But the easiest way to get your hands on a jar is to head over to wickers tx.com

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I guess like

correct me if I'm wrong, but you you self produced everything right on this record.

Samantha Crain 44:22

Yes.

Thomas Mooney 44:24

What What did what goes into that? Like we're, I guess like, is it is a two different kind of brains where you're, you're thinking as a as an artist and then as a producer, or is it not necessarily even remotely close to that? Um,

Samantha Crain 44:46

I think

I can I can only speak for myself. I've worked with a lot of producers that Are producers in more of an organizational sense where it's like, you know, they make a list of what instruments there's like the I don't know, if you've ever walked into like a recording studio where a band is like making an album and they have like a dry erase board and a list of every song and then all the instruments that are going to be on each song. And then they like check them off as they record them sort of thing. That is like a very common sort of method. And I've worked with a lot of producers that work more like in an organizational, an organizational fashion, that basically, they're there to make sure all of that stuff gets done. Be an additional creative brain, of course, but then also, sort of serve as session psychologists to because there's, there's a lot of like, stuff that happens in recording sessions that people don't really understand, which is like a lot of frustrations, a lot of self denial, a lot of lack of self confidence, a lot of just like all of these things that end up happening when you're like, in the studio, trying to make something really important. And so a producer has to be like, Okay, what can I do to get the singer to sing, even though she's like, having a breakdown in the corner? Or how do I move this session along, if like, this drummer showed up, and he's, you know, can't get this groove, right, because he's like, I don't know, hung over or something. So I mean, those are all aspects of a producer. And I did take on all of that. But at the same time, this record is so different for me than my other records, because it was it was so it came to me like so completely. Like normally I write the songs and I'm happy to open them up to interpretation to the other instrumentalists and musicians that I'm working with. But this record, when I wrote the songs, like the arrangements, the sounds, the feeling that it came to me so completely that, in a way, it was, like, I was the only one that felt like i or i was the one that I was, like, I have to produce this because I can't explain all of this to someone else and, and make sure that it's done, right. And so I think, for me on this record, it was like an it was being an artist for the for the whole, the whole process, that producer, the recording artists all together was like one project for me, it was just like, one massive persona I had to, to take on. That's not how it is for all of my records. I'm very happy a lot of times in the past to be like, here are the songs that I wrote, like, what do you think we should do? Like, that's cool. I don't like that, you know, just kind of make it more of an open conversation. And this was a pretty much like a manifesto for me. I think. So. Yeah, that's sort of where I lie on producer artist. meanings, I guess, at least for this record.

Thomas Mooney 48:45

Yeah, I always, I guess, like we always think of, we romanticize the idea of the producer always being like, Phil Spector and like, or like a Rick Rubin, or just like a massive personality. And, yeah, I guess it's always it's not. It's why they're, they're the outliers, you know, and most of the time it is it's just the organizational skills to Yeah, that's a big

Samantha Crain 49:09

Well, I think, something that I've noticed and I couldn't be wrong on this because I I'm still, I'm still learning as a producer myself, but I think that larger than life persona that producers have that like all the famous producers have, I think that that is a it's a technique as much as anything else. Because the one thing that that bands and artists need while they're making a record is like a, a, like shining light, something that's like inspiring to them 100% of the time. And, weirdly enough, like a producer kind of becomes that they need to wake up every morning and be like, Whoa, this like really cool, bizarre, genius person. is like in, in charge of my project and like, is making it happen for us, you know, like so I think that that's where that whole sort of romanticized persona of a producer comes from and they all have their own thing, right. Like, I mean, like Rick Rubin's is like zen, then producer, you know, so like, it's like, it's kind of a neat thing. Honestly, it's, it's, it's a technique, as much as all of the other learned techniques of being a producer, I think.

Thomas Mooney 50:33

Yeah, it's, it's, um, I always kind of envisioned, like t bone Burnett, like never talking to the person, he talks to someone else, and then they talk to you.

Samantha Crain 50:44

Like, he only talks to the engineer and doesn't talk to anybody else. Like, I could totally see that being the case. I don't know if he does.

Thomas Mooney 50:51

Yeah. And like, not even like out loud, just like whispers to them, like,

Samantha Crain 50:56

I don't know, write it down on a piece of paper.

Thomas Mooney 51:00

So I'm a big sports person. So I love like reading books about like, specific seasons of, of a team. And it feels like there's a lot of shared qualities between like a coach and, and a producer. Because with a coach, it's almost not always about the X's and O's. It's about like, you know, handling the egos and knowing who has the, the, the fragile ego and who needs to be like, temper down and who needs to be built up and all of those aspects and that's like, what's so interesting to me about I guess, like the the making the record process and then obviously, in relation to sports, like the it's almost never for me about like the, the the game itself, but it's like the, the soap opera around the game.

Samantha Crain 51:55

Yeah. So I mean, not to get back into the sports thing, but I mean, I being from Oklahoma, I everyone knows the the legacy of Barry Switzer, you know, and he was definitely, I think that kind of like, coach of hands, like knowing, you know, what egos went where that sort of thing? Not necessarily an X and o sort of coach.

Thomas Mooney 52:19

Yeah, it's the I this goes. We could talk about recruiting and all that kind of it is it's partly like the

where,

I guess like, for comparison's sake, here at Texas Tech, obviously cook Kingsbury was the coach for a while. And even though like he seemed really really cool, and like you know, wore Ray Bans and like was just really cool on the sidelines and connected to the players and a lot of ways more so he was an X's and O's coach. And what that means is in in a way was like he was one of the things that people were critical of was that he wasn't a great recruiter. And you know if you look at like him versus now of course Barry Switzer was won championships and stuff like that, right. And Kingsbury didn't but part of the big part of with with Barry or like any of these coaches like that is them walking into your living room and being a larger than life? superhero in a sense, right? And that's why they get now there's probably some other reasons to money and drop bags and stuff like that. But

Samantha Crain 53:41

yeah, why they

Thomas Mooney 53:42

get like the big players and sometimes other teams out so yeah, let's go back to the the record here. One of the things that I really liked about this record was there's, I guess, like, you really create a, a, almost like a dreamy kind of soundscape with a lot of the songs, they, they there's sometimes a sense of like a fever dream sense. And I guess like was that what were what was your intentions of trying to make these some of these songs? a layered kind of dreamy sense that had a lot of like dark tones and, and whatnot.

Samantha Crain 54:32

Um, yeah, I mean, like, once again, I think you really picked up on something. Um, I think that that's like 100% what I was trying to capture mainly because I don't know if you're, I'm sure that anybody that has lived any amount of time is familiar with that feeling of of trying to think back on part of their life and being like, I know that I lived that. I know that I lived through that. But I, I just don't remember it in the way. It's like, it's like stuff that you you watch on home videos like when you're a kid. And that's like, why you remember things? Not necessarily because you innately remember them. But just because you remember the videotaped memory. Does that make sense?

Thomas Mooney 55:30

That's a lot of people talk about how, with memory, it's not that you remember the initial memory. It's like, you remember the last time you remembered it?

Samantha Crain 55:39

Exactly. And, and that was that feeling, which I'm sure there's some like, amazing German word for it, or something that I just don't know, where they, they always have, like, a way of creating this like, word for, for something that there's not a word for but that feeling of, of remembering. The last time you remembered a memory was like what I was trying to capture, like, what the production elements of this because even though that, that time in my life, this like really dark sort of mental and physical breakdown state wasn't that long ago, you know, it was 2017 I still don't remember it in the way that I remember it innately. I remember it as like, I was looking at a photograph or something. It's hard to to remember myself being the person that went through it, I guess. And so I was trying to kind of capture that feeling and think fever dream is like a pretty good way to explain it. To me, from the production standpoint, the thing that I thought would capture that was we did a lot of tape looping. Just as sort of background ambience and and vibe I think that kind of helps put you in this state of fever dream I guess with the song pastime there's like this sort of droning chanting background vocals that I think I wanted those there because I kind of wanted you to feel like Have I been listening to the song for like 30 seconds or 30 minutes, I don't really know. So there's just like, elements like that where I wanted it to be accessible enough for people to sit down and listen to it without being really you know, uncomfortable or anything but I also wanted them to every once in a while just check back in with themselves and be like what's going on again, like what where am I What's going on? And that was very apparent and always like on in my mind when I was like thinking of different things for the production of this and mainly what what we used for that was like, synthesizers and tape looping.

Thomas Mooney 58:23

Yeah, I also think like the, the one you guys bring in some horns has like, it really sets part of the tone and mood of a rack of the song. And I think like a parent like the most probably apparent on that is like the song garden dove like it just feels like that is such a huge part of that song.

Samantha Crain 58:48

Yeah, I think like putting a saxophone in the song it like immediately kind of puts you in like movie soundtrack territory you know, at which is always good if you're trying to like create that sense of make make believe or like larger than life sort of thing. You know, just stick a saxophone on it. I think you're good like

Thomas Mooney 59:12

Yeah, yeah, it's um, there's there's a I guess. I'm not like a musician at all. And I was never in band or anything like that. So but there's this there's one saxophone player I guess he plays like a I think it's like the a double baritone or or a baritone sax. I'm not sure. But Collin sec system, I think is that as names that's what it kind of reminded me of. He played on a lot of like, stuff with like the Arcade Fire or like Boney bear. And he had some solo stuff as well. That's just all instrumentation. And it's, it's probably a little bit too out there for like most people, that it's not like I listened to it every day or something like that, but That's like a lot of the the vibes I got was like just that kind of like, I don't know, like you said like you didn't want it to be uncomfortable, but like there is this like, little sense of like whenever you're in open water.

Samantha Crain 1:00:15

Yeah, yeah.

Thomas Mooney 1:00:16

So

Samantha Crain 1:00:17

well, what you're talking about like that the the guy that plays on my records, he does have these sort of like specialty saxophone uses. They're not like the sort of super itinerary saxophones that you hear, like, on a, like a street band record that's like jazz, or like, you're like, oh, Bill Clinton on the Jay Leno show like that sort of thing. Like it's not Yeah, it's not bringing you to that sort of mindset. It's taking you to Yeah, I think like, open waters, like a little bit dangerous, because it's like this weird. Yeah, like that super, kind of creepy, deep baritone sort of sound that we layer with clarinets, a lot of time, which gives the additional sort of uneasy, organic feel because of the reeds and stuff. So I that's a that's a really interesting way to put it. Yeah, I think open water is probably a good descriptor.

Thomas Mooney 1:01:20

Yeah, um, one of the things you said a minute ago, that I find really interesting was about how it's the whole like, the fading, photographing the memory, like you not really remembering yourself then but like, trying to, not not necessarily even trying to get back in that headspace, but trying to like capture whatever that is. It's, it's what I thought about was, and this is just one of those very, very, super simple probably, like, way too basic of a comparison. But, you know, like, whenever you you're on Facebook, and you get like Facebook memories, and a memory will pop up of something you said, six or seven, eight years ago, and you're like, why would I have thought that? What and that's what I like it's it's sometimes it's so strange to think back on a former version of yourself, and you're like, you don't almost you almost don't recognize who that person is.

Samantha Crain 1:02:22

Yeah. Yeah, I actually, there's a song on the record that I wrote that is like, kind of about that feeling called high horse and it's just like, about that surge of different emotions, where you're like diving into that fire about seeming like a different person that like the person that experienced those past events. feels so different from like, who you currently are. So, yeah, I'm really interested in that idea as like, a human state because I'm sure that it gets even weirder, like the older you get, like, what's it gonna feel like in another 10 or 20 years? When I have like multiple lifetimes to look back on you know, it's an interesting thought and I'm like, really into thinking about it and digging into it.

Thomas Mooney 1:03:20

Yeah. Because obviously like you know, the the title of this a small death you know, is it well I wonder is if you're you're gonna feel like this was I don't want to say a face but like a, you know, a phase of like a rough patch. And then like, this is like just a different version of you. Or if this is like a version of that you feel like you've really I don't know, like, obviously, you've changed and evolved and gone through a lot of different things here. But like, is it Are you going to look back and think of this as just a moment in your life or as the moment in your life?

Samantha Crain 1:04:11

Um,

I mean, okay, so I'm not like really into astrology, but a lot of my friends are and they mentioned this thing called but I think it's called like Saturn return, which is basically like when the when Saturn comes back to me, like what your natal Saturn, so like, Where Where was when you were born? It takes about 29 and a half, 30 years, something like that. So all of this shit started happening with me like a rap that time in my life when I was that age. And so I think there is something about That process that I like to think about, about kind of completing a rotation, I guess. And that just becomes sort of like a rebirth time. So maybe in another 30 years, I feel a similar rotation. And maybe I just have like, the, hopefully by then, like, the emotional intelligence to deal with it a bit better at the beginning of it, I guess. So. I have a feeling these things happen all the time. Like, everything is always starting again. And that's just like how it goes, and you just get better at dealing with the restarts.

Thomas Mooney 1:05:58

Yeah, yeah. The astrology thing that's always like something that, you know, I don't ever I don't really believe in either. But every once in a while, you come across something about your sign, it's all over the place. And then you're like, well, I don't know, maybe there's, like, I don't know, you can pick things from it and apply it to, to, I guess that's what I'm saying is like, there's, you can pick, there's, there's going to be something good in everything that you can apply to your life and be and get better from or, you know, I'm saying so,

Samantha Crain 1:06:38

yeah, I always wish I was, like, more into the astrology thing. I've just never really, like, gotten into it. Because I just, I think personally, like, I don't feel very attached to it to getting to know about it. Like, I've never really had an interest in it. But all of my friends that are really into it are all really cool people. And so I'm always just like, I think I'm probably missing out by not getting into this, but also, I just don't find the the pool to it, I guess. But um, yeah, that's, I do think that the Saturn return idea, though, is pretty, pretty interesting and neat. And yeah.

Thomas Mooney 1:07:18

Yeah. Yeah. The, I don't know. It's, it's, it is interesting to read about it's like also kind of like the there's the like the, I guess there's two kind of popular personality tests, like the the anagram thing. And then there's like the Myers Briggs personality test, where I also go kind of, you can't just like, you know, categorize people, like into 16 different kinds of people or whatever. But every time I read something about whatever I am, I'm like, wow, okay, they they've hit the nail on the head on this one, but I don't know. So yeah, it's been really great talking with you on about this record and about life in 2020. Here, Saturday material. Okay, everybody. That's it. For this one. Be sure to check out a small death by Samantha crane out Friday, July 17. Check out episode sponsors the blue light live and workers jalapeno jelly. Check out the new slang merch store while you're at it. Okay, I'll see you all Thursday for another episode.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai