169: Joe Pug
On Episode 169, I'm joined by singer-songwriter Joe Pug, who released The Diving Sun, his latest full-length, this past Friday. Pug is also the host of The Working Songwriter, a podcast where he speaks with other songwriters and musicians about their craft and songwriting in general. During this episode, we talk about the evolution and writing of The Diving Sun, creating during the past year, NFTs, Clubhouse, songwriters like Joe Ely, and developing The Working Songwriter over the past few years.
This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol. In addition, this episode is sponsored by WYLD Gallery, The Blue Light Live, and Hot Damn Coffee.
Interview Transcript
Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.
Thomas Mooney 0:01
Hey y'all Welcome back to New slang. I'm music journalist Thomas Mooney and this go around, I'm joined by singer songwriter, Joe pug. And of course, Joe hosts, the working songwriter, a phenomenal podcast where he has a wide range of guests come talk about songwriting and the craft, I highly encourage you all to go check out the working songwriter if you haven't just yet. Joe also just released a new album this past Friday called the diving sun, there's really an interesting build up for this new album that isn't a typical path for new album. He originally thought his next record would be a collection of besides but he soon realized that there was something deeper that connected these songs, there was a blueprint of a new album within. So he updated some of those older songs and wrote some more and eventually that became the diving son, I will mention something that Joe's done differently with this album as well. So if you go by the diving son over on his website, or on his Bandcamp, you will get the full record. If you're just streaming the album, you're only going to be getting side A which is the first four songs for a while, and then eventually the side B will be coming out, which I believe is June 4, I really dig this model of releasing, I think it puts so much more power back in the hands of the artist, not that you needed more incentive to go out and buy a record. But maybe this is like that push that gets you to go and go to Joe's website, or go to his band camp and buy the record. So you'll have the entire thing. And of course, you'll be directly supporting Joe. Anyway, I really enjoyed the diving sun. And I think you will as well we go into some of the building up of that record and the writing of the album, as well as touch on a few technological things that are happening in the world of art and commerce right now, as well as touch on some of the inner workings of the working songwriter. Today's presenting partner is our pals over at Desert door Texas Soto if you're asking yourself, what exactly desert door or a SoTL is? Well, it's a premium, high quality spirit that is similar to a tequila or Moscow but in my estimation, it's more refined, smooth and fragrant. It has a distinct and intriguing palette that picks up on hints of vanilla and citrus while maintaining a healthy earthiness that is quite enjoyable. One of my favorite features about desert door is just how versatile It really is. If you want to feel fancy and a little highbrow, it's perfect for a variety of cocktails that call for lime wedges and core salt, chopped ginger, a gob a nectar sprigs of time and sticks of cinnamon, threw down to muddle some fresh fruit, all that kind of stuff. It's perfect. It's great for experimentation and fine tuning all of your mixologist skills. And then also if you're a little bit more downhome and casual, you got that denim jacket on. It's just perfect for those short and sweet simple go to favorites that hit the mark every time. I'm talking about ranch waters and Moscow mules and palomas and and Mexican Coca Cola with desert door. What I love so much about desert door is just how genuine and an authentically West Texan they are as well. They go out and harvest SoTL plants out in the wild and are aware and knowledgeable conservationists at heart. So next time you're at your neighborhood liquor store, get yourself a bottle of desert door. I'll throw a link into the show notes for more information. If this is your first time listening, be sure to hit that subscribe button. If you're over on iTunes, leave a five star review. Be sure to stop on over at the new slang merch store as well. I just added some coffee mugs and shot glasses the other week and they are flying off the shelves. Be sure to get yourself one stop on over at the Patreon as well. While you're at it. It's a great way to support this podcast and journalism in general. For as little as three bucks a month, you can get ad free episodes monthly merge and more. All these links they will of course be in the show notes. Also late last week, I announced that my first book will be coming out later this year. It'll be out before summer. It's going to be a short collection of sketches and vignettes about the Lubbock music scene. It's going to cover a very short period of time about a two year stretch from 2015 to 2017. By no means Will this be my end all be all book about my time here in Lubbock, but it'll be a nice lead in. I'll of course have a lot more details and info on the whole matter soon. But for right now, I'll just leave it at that. All right, let's get on into the episode at hand. Here is Joe pug.
I guess let's start off with the obvious you know, you have this new record enemy coming out here in just about a month. And you know, I guess what I've read is that it kind of started out as like an idea of like, collecting besides and archival kind of material. And at some point, you kind of realized that there was a common thread and a common theme. And then you wanted to expand further on that. I guess like, at what point did you kind of realize that there was that common thread and that you needed to go in that direction versus more of an odds and ends type of collection.
Joe Pug 5:27
I realized it pretty soon on, I had chosen about two or three songs from past recording sessions, when I realized that there was sort of a through line, that it was definitely a record about young love about courtship about excitement and disappointment when it comes to falling in love. And so after, you know, choosing about two or three songs, they all kind of had that in common. That's what I knew that that was the direction that the record was going and that it wouldn't just be a besides record, which basically just means, you know, here are the eight to 12 best songs that I recorded over the last decade and didn't release. But they might not have any true line going with them.
Thomas Mooney 6:15
Yeah, I find that really interesting right there. As far as their I feel like a lot of artists have that one or two songs that during any time they're they're making a record that end up not being recorded, or like they get cut last minute, all that kind of stuff, how often is it where, you know, like a song like that, just as kind of like, tapping you on the shoulder constantly going, Hey, do something with me.
Joe Pug 6:42
You know, um, I wouldn't for me, it's not too often because you know, songs that are, are good or above average, are so hard to come by, that when you have them, you tend to just release them as soon as possible. So I don't know anyone who is so prolific that they can afford to leave a bunch of stuff on the cutting room floor, I'm certainly not one of those artists, but I, I'd say where most of my stuff gets left behind is, is in the writing room. Like I just anything that we end up taking to a studio and cutting with the band, most of that ends up getting recorded and put onto an album. But a lot of the stuff that I leave behind is just in a notebook here or there. And, and that type of stuff I'll revisit months later, weeks later, years later.
Thomas Mooney 7:37
Yeah, I always find that really interesting too, as far as like, when you go back and revisit a notebook like that. And if you do you ever, like obviously that that can inspire a new song or something like that? Have you? Have you gone back though? And like, you know, kind of like, is it also one of those things where something sometimes you realize, Oh, I can put these parts together. And I can like, these, this these three, like, kind of okay, so so ideas. There's something in there that if you put them all together, there's a better song out of that, Does that ever happen right there.
Joe Pug 8:17
For me, that doesn't, I tend to think that mediocre ideas are or are just mediocre ideas, what usually ends up happening is I'll have what I consider to be a pretty good idea. But I just don't know how it fits with anything that I'm working on, you know, at the time, and I wonder where the hell the idea even came from. And it just seems so strange that it showed up. And then, you know, months later, or years later, you'd be working on a project and go, you know, holy hell that that's exactly where it fits. I can't believe I had that idea before. And it works perfectly here. So I think a lot of your best work as a writer is usually going on, for lack of a better word subconsciously. And maybe it's your job as a writer to just be, you know, to have your facility sharpened enough where you can catch it when it's time.
Thomas Mooney 9:08
Yeah, I love that right there. Because I think sometimes we we focus too much on the the songwriting as being right when you pick up that guitar, right when you pick up the pen and start writing. And I guess like in my experience with talking with people, you realize so much of that writing so much of the the creative process is that way before that, it's way before you ever actually do any of the, the I guess the physical work, if you will, it's always way more about the the moments and all that has just been kind of stewing up in the mind and you're kind of putting those puzzle pieces together and really letting it marinate.
Joe Pug 9:52
Yeah, I mean, I think if I made on that if I made when I made a bunch of mistakes in my 20s creatively, I think one of the main mistakes I made then was spending too much time in the quote unquote writers room in writing mode with the guitar in hand with a composition book in hand and not enough time just taking walks, go into the woods, you know, definitely it would have to be time not spent on a device of some kind, because that's pretty useless. But any other time that you just engage with the world, in a device isn't present that's connected to the internet? I think it's going to be just as useful for getting some answers and sitting down with a guitar.
Thomas Mooney 10:36
Yeah, well, how has that been for, you know, like, being able to instill that practice for this past year where we have kind of been stuck at home. And I know, like, so many. So often, songwriters are inspired by stories they hear on the road, or they are inspired just by being out and talking with people, obviously, and having experiences in real time. How has that been able to, I guess, translate for this year for you? Have you been able to, to simply like create and write.
Joe Pug 11:13
Yeah, I'm not a writer at this point in my life. Where I'm getting too much. Too much inspiration that way, I think that a lot of experiences I've already been through, I find, you know, I have young kids now. And I'm always doing things with them. And I get a lot of songs written in my head when I'm just hanging out with my kids. Because when you're hanging out with kids, you just don't want to on a playground or walk into the woods with them. And they don't really need you, you just have to be there to make sure that they don't die. You know what I mean? And so, you've just taken a walk, you've been present with your kids, and I tend to find that a lot of ideas come come down.
Thomas Mooney 11:57
Yeah, I mean, I think that's, for me, like, obviously, I'm not a songwriter. But I know that when it comes to writing something about someone else, if I'm thinking about analogies or thinking about weighted ways to describe an artist, that stuff usually comes when I'm doing, you know, tasks that are that are, you know, folding laundry or like doing the dishes or walking the dog and stuff like that, where you don't have to be necessarily present. It's all routine.
Joe Pug 12:32
That's exactly right. You know, raking the leaves, cleaning the gutters. cutting the grass, whatever, all that stuff. That is great for getting creative, I believe.
Thomas Mooney 12:45
Yeah, I always had like a problem, I guess, as a kid where, like, my dad always thought like, I was just daydreaming all the time, where, you know, I wasn't doing the tasks at hand, quick enough for for him because, you know, he owned for a little bit of background information. He owned a trailer company. And, you know, so during the summers working out there, you know, I guess like, the old time is money and all that stuff. And, you know, I feel like that kind of thing for me. Like I was always just kind of, I guess, like the daydreaming aspect was always frowned upon by my dad. On the mother's side, though, a little bit more creative. She was a teacher, an English teacher. And I don't know, I feel like a lot of songwriters. Especially like, I guess in the modern world here. A lot of times in in life, we kind of like try and I guess like a lot of times it can be damping that creative aspects, or it can be mischaracterizes daydreaming versus actually just thinking. And, you know, did you ever have any like problems or in not necessarily problems? But did you ever have anything like that growing up? Did you ever feel that you were like a daydreamer? That you you spent a whole lot of time in your head or anything like that?
Joe Pug 14:10
Um, yeah, definitely. Like as a kid, I didn't. I don't know that I had too many like problems with it. Or if I did, I wasn't. I was blissfully unaware. But yeah, I mean, definitely, I had a really active imagination. As a kid, I feel really lucky to be part of what my wife and I always call the Goldilocks generation, in the sense that we weren't. We were born without internet. And now we have all the great parts of the internet that are available, but we had a whole childhood where devices weren't available. And so I mean, there's just people who are born, you know, 1994 and after all you folks Mr. Great world where you just weren't on a device all the time and you were bored and so that boredom usually led to Having to entertain yourself just in your mind, you know. And so it's something I try to be conscious of to a certain degree. With my kids, obviously, it's a new world so they have to interact with technology to a certain degree, but I try not to just shove devices in their faces all the time. You know what I mean?
Thomas Mooney 15:18
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Joe Pug 17:36
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, I'm not even talking. I'm not even as good of a parent is like, I'm telling you, I give them other activities to do. I think that's what a really good parent would do. I'm just like, man, go pound sand. I don't care. You're not watching an iPad right now. So figure it out. I don't care what you do. But you're not doing that.
Thomas Mooney 17:55
Yeah, that's the, I guess, like my mother was always say to his, you know, if, I guess like a little bit of my dad, too, is like, if it would be the, the phrase, I'm bored. I mean, like, there's any time I said that, like, I've quickly learned that, you know, don't mention that, because now we're gonna give you something to do. Totally, I guess I gotta bring all that up, just to tie it back into because I was gonna ask, like, is that something that you had to work on as far as like, understanding that, that daydreaming wasn't a meaningless task that, that all of that kind of was part of the process, and that it did help. You know, it may not like make you where you write a song, a new song today, but, you know, it can help you down the line for for more songs and more, you know, ideas. Um,
Joe Pug 19:00
I guess I never know, I guess it didn't have a problem integrating it that way. Because I never looked at it as a problem before. So I didn't. I didn't ever feel like it was something I had to give myself permission to. Do you know what I mean? I always just found it enjoyable. And it wasn't holding me back in other ways. It was holding me back in other ways that I was aware of, so I never I never looked at it as a vise. So I never had to give myself permission to do it.
Thomas Mooney 19:30
Going back to this new record, did you I guess, like half Did you? At what point did you also realize that you did you did you realize that you had to like maybe do some tweaking on some of those old songs and update them to to make it a little bit more uniform to keep the idea a little bit more attached together?
Joe Pug 19:53
Yeah, I started pretty aggressively re mixing the old songs before I even decided it was going to be something other than Besides record and shorted adding stuff, I, I quickly realized that a lot of the songs I like didn't make it onto albums because I didn't like the arrangements on them. So I do things like I go in, and I would knock out everything except for the vocal and go back and put in, you know, new piano strings. I think a couple of times, I'd like to put drums in a song or two. And so that's what I did first before writing anything else. And then once I had a couple of songs like that, that I dug and thought were going to be part of the record. That's when I started to write a few songs for the album.
Thomas Mooney 20:35
Yeah, you know, you released that first single Crescent bridge, a couple of weeks back and nothing, there's it just has that anthem Matic summer kind of Springsteen feel to it. You know, thank you. Yeah, I just, I really loved the feeling of that song. And there's a little bit of that rush of that song. I feel like we've we've obviously kind of been in this last year, in a sense. And I don't know, I feel like there's, you know, we're, I guess, like, kind of, hopefully turning a little bit. And I feel like there's a little bit of maybe this is just me playing or like reading into it some but I do love like there's that sense of summer feel coming to coming to us. And I don't know, does that make?
Joe Pug 21:22
Yeah, well, you know, every time you put out an album, you hope that it catches the cultural Zeitgeist in some way. So if that if my if that song, were to catch this, like guys, two people getting over the Coronavirus, then. That would be great. That'd be great for me.
Thomas Mooney 21:45
Yeah. Well, you know, to, to transition a little bit, I mean, you know, you have the the working songwriter podcast, and it feels like, you know, especially this last year, you've done I guess at the very beginning, you know, you that was like a once a month, episode type of podcast. But, you know, as this has gotten more, it feels like, you know, there's episodes every week, and there's a little bit more of a focus on the release schedule a little bit more on that side, you know, for you like as as a songwriter. And as like the the curator of this podcast, and it was that something that was always like intentional from the beginning that you wanted to ramp up as far as the episodes go and getting getting them out a little bit more quicker at a faster rate.
Joe Pug 22:39
No, it wasn't I that was entirely COVID related. The podcast, to be completely honest with you is something that I love doing. But it was kind of like a hobby for me. And it was a hobby in the sense. It was like a hobby where I could also advertise my tour dates to listeners, you know what I mean? And then when COVID hit in March, I don't know what made me be more threat sensitive than most of the other musicians I knew. But I knew that I just knew, I had a really strong sense that it was going to be a long time before we were all back on the road. I felt like, you know, I had friends that were just like, well, I've, you know, I postponed my gigs for a month. And I remember thinking like, man, if we're back in the fall, we'll be really lucky. And here we are a year later, with no shows in sight. So when I thought that it was going to take a long time to get back. I started thinking to myself, what are some of the ways that I could, you know, keep things going make some revenue. And I thought, well, I can do the podcast from home. And so I ramped it up to a weekly schedule. And I think I'll probably keep it here. Because I like doing it. I do like doing it this month, I figured out how to edit the episodes a bit more efficiently. I've gotten better at that. So I can do it probably twice as fast as I used to. So now it only feels like twice as much work rather than four times as much work. And I really like doing the show now. So
Thomas Mooney 24:13
yeah, the I think that's like a part of it. where, you know, I've told a couple of friends about this as like, you know, I went to school to be a print journalist, and then, you know, we're in 2021 it's a different kind of world. there's not as much print work and had I known that I needed to take some like extra classes for you know, engineering aspects I probably would have you know, and yeah, it's there's a lot of other stuff that you don't necessarily realize, Oh, yeah, I don't know actually anything about this. And yeah, the editing aspect, the just recording. Of course you find all these little tips and tricks along the way. YouTube videos are very, very helpful, but Yeah, the I felt like a lot of times people don't realize all the, like talking like this like 45 to an hour. That's the easy part for me. I love talking with artists. I love talking with songwriters, it's all the other stuff that is like man. I didn't know this was gonna be part of it. But as you said, instead of being four times in marketing
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Joe Pug 27:42
Yeah, I think it's any, in any creative job, it's your job to stay up to date on the mediums that listeners or readers are flocking to themselves. It's not the readers job to conform to like what medium you like to work in as the creator, it's your job as a creator, to take to take your work and put it into a medium where people are excited about consuming it. And and I think that's never going to that's not going to change and it felt like it was 50 years ago where people would gravitate to one medium. And that medium would stay relevant for two decades. Now we're watching it switch. Even even faster. I just read an article yesterday that a listener sent me about this new thing for digital media called non fungible tokens. Have you heard about what this is? No, I have not. Basically, long story short, I'm gonna get ready to do a podcast episode about this. But long story short, it allows you to authenticate to blockchain technology. It allows you to authenticate the original digital file of a work of art. And so basically, what that'll allow you to do is like, yes, you can make copies of this thing and copies of it. But you will be able to tell to blockchain technology, what the original file was. And with that being the case, just like a trading card, would would gain value over time, like a LeBron James rookie card would gain value over time, these original copies with non fungible tokens will become more valuable. So what some artists are starting to do, and this is in the, the electro world right now, but it'll come to our world soon, is they're starting to auction off these, the original digital copy of an album and people are paying 10s of 1000s of dollars for it. And now granted, that's for very, very popular artists. He won't be the case for everybody like that, but there is going to be value there. And the larger point that I'm trying to make is it's it's incumbent upon artists to educate themselves, about, about this new technology about these new mediums So that they can monetize their art so that they can take it to people in mediums that they're excited about interacting with and purchasing.
Thomas Mooney 30:10
Yeah, that's really, really interesting. That's after you've explained it, I've not heard in that way that capacity that that way that channel, but something that is happening, and I feel, it's the exact same thing is, they are now doing like virtual sports cards. And it will be like a, a highlight reel, essentially. And I've heard about like these like going for, you know, ridiculous amounts. And it's, it's a wild concept. It's really, really interesting.
Joe Pug 30:45
Well, and I think one of the most interesting things is, think about people who lets HMI think off the top of my head, like a super famous meme, like, like the Michael Jordan crying meme, you know what I mean? Like, think about the originator of that, if they had been able to put a non fungible token on that meme, then you start to get rewarded for things going viral at that point, because at a certain point, people will be able to tell who created that content. And I mean, it sounds weird. I know. But also, five years ago, when my, my younger nephews, were explaining to me that they like to watch other kids play video games on YouTube, and I was like, your mental that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. And now the most famous people in the world are YouTube streamers. You know, it's like, this stuff gets not it gets serious really quickly, you know?
Thomas Mooney 31:45
Yeah. I have some little cousins who absolutely loved watching, like people build Minecraft stuff on YouTube. Like, okay, well, that's really weird. But yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. I mean, like, there, I've seen a couple of series on YouTube of them finding people who, who became giant names, and, you know, you don't know any of their names. And it's like, you know, they, they've basically gone back and, like, caught up with them as far as like, how did this photo become this photo, and like, When was the first time you were aware that somebody was kind of used or not kinda was using it to as a meme. And I think like, what I love so much about these those kind of videos is it does humanize that person, clearly, I mean, like, I think, like, we tend to think of it just as being a meme and like, just not being an actual person. And yeah, that's, that's really, really interesting. I'm looking further into that.
Joe Pug 32:49
It's just starting. And I think if you, I'll email you, the two articles I've read I, I'm not pretending to be an expert on this, I like what I just explained to you, it's like the sum total of my knowledge on it, I'm just using it as an example of the need to be, you're not the Rolling Stones in 1962, when records are going to be the dominant medium for the next 30 years until CDs come out. Like it's just, it's given that things are moving a lot faster than that. And, and people have to be particularly creators. You got to be with it, or your work is never going to be consumed, or it's going to be consumed. And someone else is going to be the beneficiary of the monetization. And that's, that's almost even worse.
Thomas Mooney 33:39
Yeah. Another little technology that I've seen you use, and I've been using it for a minute, too, is clubhouse. And, you know, I've, I saw you in a room earlier this morning that I was somebody had asked me about podcasting, and how clubhouse was affecting that. And I was kind of saying how early on I was kind of worried like, Oh, is this gonna take over podcasting? Is this what what is gonna happen to like Mike on a podcast, which is not like a, you know, it's not Joe Rogan or anything like that. Right. And I've realized, like, as I was kind of saying in the when they asked me that was it's just another tool for for kind of promoting the podcast. And I think like, there's other things that we can do with it as far as having kind of the live show, if you will, the reaction podcast or, you know, obviously, it's a great way to have questions in real time from an audience. Yes. What? Yeah, go ahead. Like what do you think about about it? In this, you know, these first couple of weeks that you've been engaged with it?
Joe Pug 34:54
Well, I tell you, what about at the end of last year, I I decided I was going to delete my Twitter account because I hate. I just really thought about it. And I was like, You know what? Every time I'm on the Twitter app, I'm just sad, angry, bummed out, jealous, envious. It's just a horrible place to be, I think, different apps and different mediums bring out different sides of people. And I just hated Twitter. So I just, I got rid of, and, and soon when I heard about this new medium clubhouse, I was like, you know, I got rid of that other medium, let me try this new one, and see what side out of people and what side brings out of me, and maybe it'll be a little bit more positive. So I'm going to try it, I'm going to try to produce a couple weekly shows on it with some friends of mine, and I'm going to see if it goes anywhere. And if it goes somewhere, and it picks up listenership, and it's a good place to connect with people. I'll, I'll continue with it. And if I feel like it's a time suck, and a bummer, I'll be like, well, I did the due diligence on it, and wasn't useful to me. So I'll move on.
Thomas Mooney 36:08
Yeah, I've what I've found, maybe like the, the strangest aspect of it is the trying to explain to other people what it is. And I'm like, just, it's it's kind of like a like, like, I don't know, like am radio, if you're tuning in, or like a TED talk. Or it can be more like a live podcast, or like a live chat room for conversation. And I'm always like, as I've kind of used, the example is like, trust me, I'm not getting you I'm not trying to, like sell you on, like multi level marketing or something. Right? Just like trust me on it. You want to like maybe at least check it out? And yeah, I don't know, I find it I've found it to be for at least for me on a personal level. It's been. It's kind of helped fast track a couple of relationships with people that I had either had exchanges of emails with in the past and had a working relationship and that kind of capacity. But just having that voice to that name. I guess like a little bit more trust happens. And I don't know, I found it to be like a, again, like, as you said, with Twitter, or like Facebook, a little bit more of a refreshing engagement with people.
Joe Pug 37:28
Yeah, was it what it feels like? Because it's still like semi in beta. And it's like an invite only thing right now. I think it feels more like web 1.0, where there's not a ton of people on it. So you can kind of it flattens the space between a lot of different people that you wouldn't normally talk to. So that feels cool. I don't think that that will scale. I think, once they open up to the public, and once they once they try to scale as a company. It won't feel like that anymore. But right now, in this moment, I think probably for the next three to six months. It's really good for what you just described, which is essentially a networking tool.
Thomas Mooney 38:08
Yeah. And one of the things I thought like, early on that I was like, this is this is a glaring omission. But I've realized now I'm like, Oh, actually, I kind of like this aspect is that it doesn't have a DM or direct message. Yeah, system. Because what it's made me do is like, actually push and get out of the app and email that person or give that person a phone call. And I think that's been a little like, a subtle genius part of what's happening there.
Joe Pug 38:43
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the technologies that we like the best, have really well thought out limitations on think about, like, if you if you're an Instagram user, when you first started using Instagram, there's all these different limitations to like, you can't put links in the, you know, the body of the text, repost. You can't hit a lot of stuff on there. But turns out people like that, you know what I mean? people, you know, it's a whole world of technological possibilities at this point. And at a certain point, as consumers, it turns out that we like to be constrained.
Thomas Mooney 39:21
Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that. Going back to the podcast. You know, one of the things that I think I've really appreciated about guys like you and like Chris shiflett, as far as like the the artist, the songwriter, the artist, interviewing other artists, is that, in my opinion, like there's this, I guess, this thing called like, I guess, like band talk or like, songwriter, talk where, where I guess like because there is a little bit of that shared experience, even if you don't necessarily know that person, like a BFF, a best friend or something like that. typically there's like a little bit there's a more trust in that relationship from the get go. And I feel like so often y'all are able to just jump right into conversation and talk about real things, real aspects of being a musician. And like, is that something that like you that you guys are that you personally have been like aware of that you realize, like, Oh, I'm able to talk with these people a little bit quicker than I am whenever I'm being interviewed by a journalist or someone else like that?
Joe Pug 40:32
Yeah, I definitely think with most of the artists I talked with, on there, there is like, there is like a mutual respect going on. Not that there isn't mutual respect, or that there shouldn't be mutual respect between someone being interviewed and the interviewee anyway, but But yeah, I found that to be a little bit more of the case. And, you know, sometimes I get people that are pitched to me who are any bigger artists and their publicist will pitch them to me and I'll, I'll take it because I want to interview the person. When I get on the phone with them, they don't know that I'm on a songwriter, you know, they, all they know is that there's a 230 call that their publicist told them to do. And they're, they're annoyed that they have to do it. They're on the phone with me. And so I really, things I try to do is I don't try to like, when that's the case, I don't I really try to not like put it in their face like Well, I I know what I'm doing here too. You know, I do this as well. It's like no one needs to hear that. You know what I mean? I try to switch really quickly to just to just asking them questions and, and not chipping in too much of my own two cents, because that's not what they understand the interview. To be in. Ultimately, I just want people to be comfortable and I want them to go on the ride and they feel like going on.
Thomas Mooney 42:03
This episode of new slang is brought to you by the blue light live here in Lubbock, Texas. Blue Light has undoubtedly been my home away from home over the years, and has played such a vital role not only for my development as a journalist, but obviously it's been one of the foundational pieces for a lot of your favorite songwriters and bands who have made it out of the Lubbock area over the years. And of course, as a music venue. They've played such a pivotal role for a lot of your favorite bands just in general. One of my favorite parts about blue light is just how versatile the place can truly be. I've seen it crowded and rowdy on a Saturday night for a rock and roll band. And I've seen it dead still on a Wednesday when a legendary singer songwriter rolls through town. What you should do is go over to blue light, Lubbock calm and check out all the new merge. They've added hats, t shirts, both short and long sleeve. They also have hoodies and koozies and just added some sweatshirts that are very much an homage to the college sweatshirt that john Belushi wore an Animal House. And then of course, maybe the crown jewel of their new merge is the varsity club style jacket and blue satin. I got one the other day. And yeah, it's just one of my favorite things I own now. And yeah, I don't know. I just love it anyway, you can check out all their new merge over at blue light, loving calm, as always, I'll throw a link into the show notes for easy access. Okay, let's get back to the show. So it is actually that first episode that you did with Joey Lee. Being a guy who has lived here in Lubbock, Texas, the last decade or so, obviously, Joey Lee, the flatlanders. Artists like that. They they hold a certain reverie for me, I I feel like there's like it like anyone, if there's somebody who comes from an area around you, there's a little nother level of pride for that. And, of course, someone like Joey Lee, kind of the epitome of West Texas. What was it? Like? I guess like, you know, going back to that, like, what was it like, you know, in the decision to have him on is like that first guest and everything?
Joe Pug 44:15
Well, Joe had taken me out on the road quite a bit as an opening act very early on in my career, and I'd gone out and I'd open for the flatlanders. And I'd open for Joe, a bunch at that point. So he had been really supportive of me, and had given me a lot of advice and give me a lot of his time. And I'm also good buddies with his manager who lives in Marfa, actually plants was out in West Texas. And so I didn't want to annoy Joe with the request. And I wanted him to have a buffer to be able to turn it down if you wanted to because he wants to be the first guest on any new venture. I mean, it's like what are you doing? You know what I mean? Like you're still Reading the thing and you want me to be the first person on it like it's not good. But, you know, I talked to Lance, his manager, I explained to him what it was I explained to him that I was taken seriously that the job is going to be framed in a really respectful way. And they, to their credit, they took a flyer on me. And let me do it. I think he's an iconic working songwriter. I think he's the epitome of a working songwriter. So I think it was auspicious that he was the first guest.
Thomas Mooney 45:33
Yeah, there's a couple things I really liked that you said there. And for starters, let's talk about Joe for a second. You know, one of the things I love so much about Joe is that, you know, I think so often, like an artist will, I guess, like maybe we the collective, we sometimes just view their their early work is like the greatest work and you know, they plateaued or they lost touch or something like that. I think, Joe, like, he's just, you know, he's a like, gotten better with age as he's gotten older. And he's like, adapted and changed and morphed and reinvented himself over the course of his career. And that's something that I absolutely appreciate that he's, you know, he's not like, stuck in trying to, like create that first record or something like that. And, as you said, like the working songwriter, I feel like there's so much with him as far as like, a being able to, you know, take songs that were written by Butch Hancock, and make them his own, but then also, at the same time, just progressively get better as a songwriter and storyteller.
Joe Pug 46:57
Yeah. I think Joe has always been to get back to mediums using new mediums, Joe has always been at the vanguard of that he was starting to record digital music on a Mac, in like, 1982, you know, in his home studio, like before anyone knew what a Macintosh was much less, you know, trying to record digitally. So he,
he's always been down for that he has, the main thing that I took away from touring with him is,
and some of those gigs and this is how it goes with anybody who's not like, a straight up, you know, Star household name, which is your Thursday, Friday, Saturday night gigs are awesome, there's a lot of people there, in a big city to see that headliner play and, and then the rest of the week, you got to fill up with gigs that are on the way to those bigger gigs that are, I mean, you know, not to talk out of school here. But you know, they're not, they're not the greatest, sometimes not the greatest audiences, you know, the greatest gigs in the world and, and even Joey Lee had those and watching him carrying himself with the same amount of poise and class, in situations like that on a Tuesday night in Walla Walla versus a Friday night. In Seattle, it just really taught me a lot about the equanimity that you need to carry yourself with. Just as a person in life, probably in general, but certainly as a performing artist, which is like, Look, man, it's a there's going to be strikes and gutters, man. And that's it. And if you don't want to deal with the gutters, don't do it. You know, if you're gonna be a big baby about it, then go do an easier job, go sell real estate or something like that, you know? But don't don't complain about him. And, and he never did. And he always he always walked in every place like he owned the place. You don't want to and, and, and I just can't say enough about it. You know, if there was somebody that I could be like, what I grew up with peach. Oh, for sure. Yeah,
Thomas Mooney 49:06
the, anytime I've seen them walk into a place, kind of like that or pity me. Okay. Yeah, I remember one time specifically, this is like the first time I didn't even go up and introduce myself or anything like that. But the first time I saw him in person, he was at this time when I was I was up at the newspaper here, the local newspaper here in Lubbock. And I was working at a desk during the summer and he came up the steps and was kind of like I guess he was looking for someone. Obviously, way higher up than me, but he just kind of knew it was like a double take kind of thing. Like, you know, what is that Joe Ely right there? And of course it was and yeah, I just think like, he's just kind of been the epitome of cool and as He said with like being on the vanguard, the recording of that Mac record you know the before at for the high rez I guess. Yeah, everyone kind of thinks of Joe especially early on if if they're just like playing the greatest hits as being kind of like the rockabilly the Honky Tonk kind of stuff and man like that, that Mac record that he did. He couldn't be like, you know further from that yet, like, it's still like that, that aggressive edge that attitude. And, you know, I don't know, like there's just something, as you said, very, very special about Joe, and about his songwriting and how he's really adapted. One of the other things I've loved about how he's changed over the years is, I guess, like the sonic touches. If, if early on, you know, there was a little bit more of that podcast that, as I said, the Honky Tonk edge. And now like, if you've listened to his stuff in recent years, like, the panhandle Rambler record, it's almost like the he's, you know, he's really adopted a lot of the southwestern accents of guitars versus more of the the punk rock and roll's type of guitar action.
Joe Pug 51:18
Yeah, I mean, he's always been, he's always been following his heart, on the sound. And I mean, he's had a career to be reckoned with.
Thomas Mooney 51:31
You also mentioned about, like, how that interview was set up? That's something that I was gonna ask Actually, I wrote that down is the How often have you like relied on already having like a relationship with that artists? And then usually do you try and reach out via their PR, just to get it officially through that way?
Joe Pug 51:52
Well, once I started doing it weekly, I needed a lot more guests. And so I opened it up to submissions from publicists. And the good thing about that is publicist they need, they need locations for their artists to go because their artists are paying them to get locations. So now I have a relationship with you know, half a dozen publicists who send me You know, every week, there's hitting me, so many people are putting out albums, you know, it's crazy. But every week, you know, there'll be they'll submit, I don't know, 30 or 40. People. So I've relied on that. In some ways. It's interesting, because I can almost outsource the booking of the show to that, because I have someone who's interested is in who's interested is to get their client on. So that's made it a lot easier than me just going out. And cold calling people for sure.
Thomas Mooney 52:48
Yeah, I always find, obviously, like the going through PR, in my opinion. Even if like it is somebody I consider a friend or they consider me a friend. I just go through their PR, because I guess like that, just that level of professionalism. And as you said, like, if you're paying for that service, I feel like that it's, you know, they, you're you're doing just as much for them, as you are like, doing it for the PR, I guess and getting all the all the things right, as far as the schedule and everything. But
Joe Pug 53:27
yeah, the really cool thing for me as an artist is to get to see what publicists are good and which ones are terrible at their jobs. to like, you know, like, you get like the ones I work with are obviously I consider to be really good because they they only take on as many clients as they can relay service. And as they can, like, like they'll write you like a handcrafted, specific pitch for an artist not like a boilerplate thing, that they just plugged their artists name into hand. like you wouldn't believe how many people I just I get published, it's writing me saying, hey, well, you have so and so on the podcast. They're a big fan of your American songwriter podcast. It's not gonna, it's not gonna fly. It's not the name of the show. Like he didn't, it would have taken you 10 seconds to Google, like 10 seconds. And and you didn't?
Thomas Mooney 54:22
That's a great point. That's a, I've learned over the years that typically, the shorter the email that you get, the more like that means it's been like a little bit more personalized.
Joe Pug 54:34
Yeah. Let's say you know, they can, and even if they did, just listen to your show, to be able to quote a few parts of it or give you something specific, even if it was like, not in a genuine way, like at least it shows some semblance of respect, because they took the time to do that. You know what I mean? So it just shows a little bit more work. It shows that You might have a more willing partner to promote the podcast episode eventually.
Thomas Mooney 55:06
Yeah. How is like how is like been doing the podcast expanded your, your creative side as far as like just kind of doing, you know, obviously studying some some other people's processes and their approach to the craft? Have you have you been able to adopt little pieces, little nuggets from these people who've you've had on and at least like, try out, if there's a certain way they they do something.
Joe Pug 55:36
You know, before I started the show, I thought that's what was gonna happen. And it hasn't at all. And what I've actually taken away the most has changed my music the most from the podcast is I've gotten really nifty with editing, digital audio, and, and so now, that allowed me to just allows me to make a lot more of my records in house now because I, I'm just on a weekly basis, really diving in and trying to get digital audio to sound good. And in learning how to edit, edit comes together and stuff like that. So the only way that it's really changed, my writing process is on the technical end.
Thomas Mooney 56:23
Yeah, the, I guess like the, one of our shared guests has been Robert Ellis. And he had mentioned like this this way, he was starting to write songs. As far as like the taking, I guess, like working five minutes, then like, one minute off or something like that, that he had read in a book. And, Robert? Yeah, well, I will tell you like right now, I tried doing that I tried to do that in writing articles, and very much could not do that. I could not do this, like five minute on one minute off thing. So I ended up having to do it more like 30 minutes on 10 minutes off. And that kind of helped a little bit. Giving you a little bit of break in between and like trying to, I guess like a little bit more of a sharp focus. But that's, that's the first thing that popped into my head as far as like, Oh, I wonder if if, if off air, anything like that. Mr. Robert Ellis mentioned that to you, as an idea. As an exercise,
Joe Pug 57:33
he throws out a lot of ideas. Most of them are good, man. He's a really, I think I've gotten a pretty good chance to know him over the last four or five years and I just think he's really inspiring guy. I love Robert.
Thomas Mooney 57:46
Yeah, that last record of his it's just been one of my favorites of the last decade easily. So yeah, he I guess he played here in Lubbock a couple years back, and his piano went out. And so he had to, like, stop playing on the piano and play bout half the set on guitar and like, try and like figure out exactly how those chords were going. But it was it was an interesting night. There was also some assholes in the crowd, as you said, like the professional or the I guess like yeah, the professionalism of having to play a Tuesday gig or I think this show specifically what the Monday gig here in Lubbock, but yeah, yeah. So I was I was gonna get you out on this last question here. And that is, how is like, I guess like your prep work as far as getting ready for an interview. Did you ever do any, like prep work? Or like, whenever you've been on, like, for example, on this podcast, you've been on the other side? Did you ever do any of that kind of stuff beforehand? And did that ever? Did that, I guess, influence or affect the way you were getting ready for your own podcast when you became like, quote unquote, the interviewer
Joe Pug 59:10
Yeah, I when I first started doing the podcast, I didn't like a lot of prep for interviews. But what I found out what was happening was it was handcuffing, my ability to have just a kind of genuine and spontaneous conversation. And so I found this happy medium where you obviously have to know a certain amount about your interview subjects background just as a baseline perfect. Like, you know what I mean, like you have to know the major tentpole events and accomplishments in their career. So like, you don't want to find out in the interview that they want to Grammy 20 years ago, because then you're an asshole, you know what I mean? But I like to just know that stuff that I can so that I can kind of weave it into the interview a little bit, but I don't really I don't like reading press releases. And I don't like knowing too much of their background because I like to discover it with with the listeners of our of our podcast.
Thomas Mooney 1:00:07
Yeah, that's that's kind of like why I try and keep it more of the topic based on my end at least because especially early on as a as a journalist, I was realized that I was thinking more about the next question I was gonna ask versus what you were saying. And I guess like, once I kind of realized that at some point early on. I feel like made me a better interviewer and just obviously a better listener. So, yeah, that's, uh, I don't know, I I feel like you're like the first podcast I've actually ever had on the podcast. So we're on a mirror. So yeah, but uh, yeah, well, it's been really great talking to you today. Thanks for having me on, Thomas. I appreciate it.
All right, that is it. For this one. Be sure to check out the diving sun by Joe pug. Check out our presenting partners over at Desert door. The blue light live wild gallery in hot damn coffee, stop on over at the merch store in the Patreon and yeah, I'll see y'all later this week for another episode.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai