160: Jillette Johnson

On Episode 160, I'm joined by singer-songwriter Jillette Johnson. At week's end (Friday, Feb. 12), Johnson will be releasing her forthcoming album, the gleaming It's a Beautiful Day & I Love You. On this new album, Johnson works in a bright and sunny sonic palette into the mix. While she never ventures too far from her piano-laden work, punches of sharp guitar, light '70s pop-inspired harmonies, and upbeat melodies find the now Nashville-based Johnson delivering some of her best, most comfortable work. While she still delves into serious subjects about anxiety, self-destructiveness, pain, and struggle throughout, Johnson's gratitude and acceptance shine brighter offering a resonating message. 

On this one, we talk about the writing and recording of It's a Beautiful Day & I Love You, the songwriting process in general, mood boards, Air Force Ones, moving to Nashville, and more.

This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol. In addition, this episode is sponsored by The Blue Light Live and Hot Damn Coffee.

Interview Transcript

Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.

Thomas Mooney 0:01

Hey y'all. Welcome back to New slang. music journalist Thomas Mooney. We're kicking this week off being joined by singer songwriter, Jillette Johnson. Jillette has this new album out Friday, February 12. It's called, it's a beautiful day and I love you. It's absolutely wonderful. So I first came across in Jillette back a few years ago when she released this album called all I ever see in you is me. I really love that album. And I'm pretty sure that the songs Love is blind and flip a coin. they wound up being in like my top 15 most played songs that year. That album, it just had this certain mood and feel that was really heightened and acute. A lot of Fleetwood Mac rumors vibes, I think you could say that there's like this touch of Stevie Nicks, restlessness, or a melancholy mood throughout. I feel like Jillette just really does that really well, her writing and her delivery. It just really suits that this new album, she of course, writes and addresses pain and struggle and a lot of the things that you would see in her previous works, these songs, they have an emotional weight as well. But I think this album, really finds her happy and in a really great place. And I think she really balances those two worlds. Just kind of perfectly on this record. Sometimes she uses humor and a little bit of this tongue in cheek Enos, when speaking about these serious subjects, their self awareness and compassion, and in many respects acceptance. I think an easy example of this is the song jealous. Jillette addresses something that I think we all struggle with. Keeping up with the Joneses, and scoreboard watching, it's easy to obsess and allow jealousy to become that thief of joy. Instead of letting that anxiety drain you though, she spins it and it becomes a little bit more of an anthem. And there's these hints of humor, where it's not necessarily like Haha, laugh out loud, funny, but you kind of get that winking into the camera. You find that joy and that charm, also on songs like Annie and what would Jesus do, and there's like this really bright and sunny palette that she plays with, it's this pop of color that just feels nice and crisp, like a sunny day, and even on something like I shouldn't go anywhere. It has this 70s poplin to it. That just lightens it up just the touch where maybe that wouldn't have happened on previous works. There's this self destructive sway on that song that really taps into this lonesome afternoon bar setting. And it just gives off this perfect little glow of gloom and loneliness. And I don't know, for me, I just think that sadness, it just really resonates with me. Anyway, we talk a lot about the writing in the recording of this record and just the writing process in general moodboards, Air Force ones and much much more on this episode. Before we get started though. Today's presenting partner is our pals over at Desert door Texas Soto. If you're asking yourself, what exactly desert door or a soul is, well, it's a premium, high quality spirit that is similar to a tequila or Moscow but in my estimation, it's more refined, smooth and fragrant. It has a distinct and intriguing palette that picks up on hints of vanilla and citrus while maintaining a healthy earthiness that is quite enjoyable. One of my favorite features about desert door is just how versatile It really is. If you want to feel fancy and a little highbrow, it's perfect for a variety of cocktails that call for lime wedges and core salt, chopped ginger, a Gabi nectar sprigs of time and sticks of cinnamon, threw down a muddle some fresh fruit, all that kind of stuff. It's perfect. It's great for experimentation and fine tuning all of your mixologist skills. And then also if you're a little bit more downhome and casual, you got that denim jacket on. It's just perfect for those short and sweet simple go to favorites that hit the mark every time. I'm talking about ranch waters and Moscow mules and palomas and and Mexican Coca Cola with desert door. What I love so much about desert door is just how genuine and an authentically West Texan they are as well. They go out and harvest Soto plants out in the wild and are aware and knowledgeable conservationists at heart. So next time you're at your neighborhood liquor store, get yourself a bottle of desert door. I'll throw a link into the show notes for more information. All right, be sure to subscribe to the podcast give a five star review. Go follow us on all the social media stuff, check out the Patreon and the merch store. All links will be in the show notes. And yeah, let's go ahead and get on into the interview. Here is Jillette Johnson.

Yeah, so yeah, I guess let's just start off with the obvious you have this new record coming out just in like two weeks from now. And I think The first thing that like really, that you notice as far as like the difference between this and previous works by you is, this has a lot more guitars on it. And you feel like the, that indie rock side of things a little bit more. Early on, was that kind of one of those things that you had in mind for wanting to have as a part of this record? Or I guess, like, at what point did that kind of did you realize that like, you were kind of expanding the the sonic palette?

Jillette Johnson 5:31

Yeah, I, I think that, um, I really wanted to hear that kind of gritty, electric guitar sound. a while before I made this record, I was longing for it. And part of my search for the right producer for this record had to do with finding somebody that I knew could do that in a way that also like, didn't get in the way of songs, which I think is a hard thing to do. Like, I think a lot of guitar players who I who I admire even want to play as much as physically possible. And so the task was really finding either the right guitar player or the right producer, who was also a guitar player, and I found that person in, in job zappia, who's one of the best guitar players I've ever met. But he's also so musical and so obsessed with songs the way that I am. That it worked. And I'm so glad that it did. Because I, as a piano player, that sound is a sound that I don't know how to get to on my own. So I really needed a partner. And he was he was like, the ultimate in that respect for sure. Yeah, I

Thomas Mooney 7:01

always wonder about like, as a songwriter who does primarily sit at the piano and and think of songs originating that way, like how much do you think about the the other aspects of the of the song while writing it? Or is it one of those things where you just have to wait a minute? And not? I guess, like, not get the the horse in front of the card? I guess?

Jillette Johnson 7:29

Yeah, well, I think that I don't know if everybody works this way. But I really think that the song has to stand up on its own, in its most stripped down form, which, usually for me, is piano and voice. Sometimes I read on guitar More more recently, because I've been really trying to get myself to be a better guitar player. So I can actually play these parts that are on my record. But But I think, I think it's that part has always been really important to me. And it's only recently that I've started to kind of go there to the what's it gonna sound like when there's a band plays, kind of either while I'm writing or directly after. I think it was just too much math for my brain to do as a younger person. But I write differently a little bit now because of that, like, I don't think I don't take up as much space on the piano as I used to. Because I want there to be these other components that are like just beyond you know, arpeggiated piano. But yeah, it's uh, I don't know, it's a it's a hard thing to be able to really like, conceptualize what something's going to sound like, when it's not just you in a room anymore.

Thomas Mooney 9:05

Yeah, it's, that's really interesting. I think that like, a lot of times, and this is probably related to how you were talking about guitar players and knowing that guitar players like to play. He, as a piano player, likes to probably play piano, right. And I think early on, like, we're all trying to figure out where our voices and so you do kind of do everything as big as like, you know what I mean? Like you try and go as like far out as possible. And then like, you realize, at some point like, You're, you're kind of saying right here. Oh, you know, I don't play as much of the piano is as four songs and I leave that space because I know I want these other things. And maybe that's just like the comfort in in becoming like knowing who you want to be as an artist.

Jillette Johnson 9:57

Yeah, totally. I mean, I I've never been a very confident piano player if I'm being honest. So, I don't know that I was like, I want to be heard as much as possible on the piano, I just didn't have the experience of playing with other people very much growing up. So I was trying to fill out the spaces and make it a complete song as much as I could on my own. And I think those habits just kind of got really formed. Because of my environment. It's like, you know, our environment is, is so much of so has so much to do with the people we become and the artists we become like the kinds of rooms that we end up writing in and the kinds of rooms we play music live and, and for me, I was like, alone and in a room with a p&l for most of my life. So I think only later in this last chapter of my life so far have I not that I'm in the last chapter of my life, but in the last chapter of my life so far, I've gotten to spend more time with musicians who just it made it easier on me like I would rather that other people are filling in some of those spaces. I'm, I'm someone that is like, Please don't leave me space to solo on the piano. That's my worst nightmare. But are you? Are you a guitar? Like, are you a musician?

Thomas Mooney 11:36

No. But like, I have no like music ability whatsoever, other than, you know, humming along kind of stuff. But

Jillette Johnson 11:44

what a fan, you're a

Thomas Mooney 11:45

music fan. And then I just think like, it's not the same thing as writing the song. But like writing, in general for, you know, magazines and stuff. writing articles, is like a cousin of sorts. And so like, it's strangely like the same kind of headspace sometimes.

Jillette Johnson 12:03

Mm hmm. Yeah, you have to, you have to get into a flow and kind of trust, trust that there's a voice in you, that's going to be interesting. And let it take over.

Thomas Mooney 12:16

Yeah, like I often, I guess, like, the frustrating aspects is like the most the stuff that I end up like talking most about in it's like, the, where you kind of feel like you're lost, and you don't know what you're doing kind of thing. And I always, I think I heard you, I know, I heard you talk about this during a different podcast. And, and it was like the the space that you allow yourself to have when your songwriting and like how early on during the pandemic, you were kind of like, breaking that space, because, you know, you have your husband also in the house. And he's like, you're typically like, you were talking about how you're typically had all that space to yourself, because you know, he's going to work. And then the pandemic starts. And then like, all of a sudden, it's like, you have to share the space. I think that's really interesting. The, because I feel like the same thing sometimes as far as like, just not knowing, like, or not, not necessarily me knowing the boundaries, but like, sometimes. I know, I'm rambling here, but the when, like, sometimes like my, especially like, during the holidays, like my mother would just like bother me. When I was gonna do something, it's like, can you please stop, like, just, I know, you're trying to do good, like by offering like, if I want some coffee or something, but like, just please leave me alone.

Jillette Johnson 13:47

You know, you're touching on an interesting topic that I think about a lot and I haven't really talked about much this. Trying to balance being an artist. And being a writer in particular, which requires a lot of space requires a lot of silence, and a lot of like autonomy over your area and your time. And also trying to be a human being who's connected to other people and kind and like connected and flexible. And sometimes those things really do feel like they're at odds with each other. And I know that, particularly when I was a teenager and in my 20s I'm 31 now so I'm just barely out of my 20s but I can say defiantly for a lot of my 20s I felt like I had to choose. I felt like romantic relationships that I had, inevitably, were there to get in the way of me being an artist. And sometimes I felt that way about friendships, too. And I feel really grateful. I think this record actually silently speaks to this a lot, I feel really grateful that for some reason, I started to see that there was a third way that you're I mean, there's always going to be times when you want to be writing. And it's not convenient, or like there are people there where you don't have the things that you need to be able to do that. But I think it requires a lot of practice to get to a place where you can like, show up for your people and show up for your art. And it's just like, I think it's just a huge balancing act.

Thomas Mooney 15:48

Yeah. Because like, it's, it's, I think that like, I don't know, like, forever, we've been kind of told that you as the songwriter, you know, you're supposed to, like, just do that. And like, when inspiration strikes, you know, you're doing that, and, to hell with any kind of actual relationships. As far as like, any relationship you mentioned, like romantic friendships, like family, like, it's just one of those things that you've seen forever, like, all of our songwriting heroes, having like, these bad relationships with everyone, just burning bridges and whatnot. And I don't think necessarily, you walk in thinking that you have to do that. But it is one of those things where that's been, like the, the, in the popular culture, if you will, and so like, you kind of think that's the only way. And then you realize like, Oh, you know, like, there's other people, there's actual artists who do you have really great, like, family relationships, and they have like that constant? Just like, I don't know, they are able to, they figured it out. And like, I think that all comes with time and realizing and understanding and then also, like, the understanding of everyone else in your life, kind of, I don't know, like allowing you to set those boundaries up to the understanding, I guess.

Jillette Johnson 17:17

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, yes, we've been, we've been kind of shown, the success in entertainment often goes along with like, just needing to be fiercely independent, and, and breaking off relationships and instability and a personal life. And I think it is helpful to see other people who really do manage to balance their personal life and their career successfully. But also, at some point, I don't know if you felt this way. But I just got to a point where I was like, that's not happy. Like, I'm lonely. I know a lot of people. And there are a lot of people who I really like and actually love, but I don't feel like I've really let people know me or like, I've really built a strong community that I can rely on. And that was part of why I moved to Nashville, because I just could tell that this place nurtures that. And it is special in that it allows for people to grow as artists and simultaneously be nice people. And like, I think sometimes I get these questions about like Nashville as an intimidating city, because it's the Music City and the capital of country music. And that's not been my experience at all, I would say that this place prioritizes kindness in a in a way that I've not experienced in the other places that I've lived. But yeah, I think I think you just get to a point, or I did where, like, it doesn't really make sense to, to keep going down that path of just trying to burn shit up to be successful. Because I don't know, it just became really clear that that wasn't going to give me what I thought it would like success. Success doesn't really make you happy, I don't think I think it's really fun. To be able to, like, carry some weight in a room or like be able to play in front of a bunch of people and all that stuff. And there's plenty of stuff I want to achieve. I'm a very ambitious human and have been my whole life but just nothing can replace having real relationships and people that you love in your life.

Thomas Mooney 19:51

Yeah, it's this weird thing where obviously like one of the main reasons people get into art and writing is to show off their humanity. And like, it's kind of this backwards thing where it's like, you, they want you to like, yeah, be isolated and be independent and be by yourself. Instead of just like, realizing, Oh, you know what I can show my humanity off by like, the the friendships that I have the, the conversations that I have with people that are real and genuine and yeah, it's all I guess all about balance and not, you know, letting any one thing just burn you down exhaust like, where you just go to the limits and that but it just make you a shell of a person, I guess.

Jillette Johnson 20:42

Yeah. And that's a hard line to walk to. Because you want to simultaneously not take yourself too seriously. And get that, like, your humanity is just as important as everybody else's. And your being able to like show up for your people is just as important as your career. But at the same time, when you do have something that you feel like you want to say, and you do have a certain passion that you believe in, you also have to kind of be ruthless, and stand up for it. And like Believe in yourself in ways that other people can't see. And I think that's inevitably going to be like a little bit of a messy trajectory for anybody, like learning how to really know that you're special, but not think that that makes you better. You know, you're special because we're all special. And the thing that you're doing that lights you up, like brings out that extra juicy, wonderful part of your humanity. But it doesn't like give you the right to be an asshole.

Thomas Mooney 22:04

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Alright, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, I I've said before in the past like you like no one should be an asshole. Like, obviously legislate state that but like, for, for musicians and artists. in general. You have to be like so, like, top point 00 1% to just be an asshole all the time and still have your way. Best. Yeah, like you have to be so talented to be able to do that. And the rest of us don't have that luxury. So it's better to be nice. And you're touching on something that I I really think that what I try and do as a journalist is, is show like, you guys are just normal people, but like you're doing like these extraordinary things. And like that's where like the kind of like the magic of it. Like the romanticism the the amazing aspects of the magic, if you will, is those things and it's because you guys are what makes it a little bit more special is because at the end of the day, you guys are just like everyone else. So I don't know.

Jillette Johnson 24:50

Yeah.

Thomas Mooney 24:52

One of the things I was wanting to talk to you about though on this record, though, is you've mentioned how, you know you feel like this is this new chapter where you are, you're happier, you're just like, and I think like that comes out in the music. And especially like in the this is not even necessarily related to the music but I feel like it's part of it is like the the color palette of like this record and the art that goes along with it is really a lot more bright and cheery. And I guess like, obviously it's reflective of the music. But what I wanted to know is like, Did you guys did you have like any mood boards or anything like that, for this record?

Jillette Johnson 25:31

Lots of them. Okay, I started making mood boards before, like, two years before we recorded the record. And I just, I mean, I've always really enjoyed the visual aspect of putting music out. But this has been the most hands on that I've ever been, like I I've been I've been really grateful that I've, I've been able to know what I want really, the in the past I've kind of like had a hard time honing in on a visual direction and really leaned on art directors to help guide that. And this time, it's really just, I mean, I've had really talented people helped me like a graphic designer named Betsy Baird, who did all the album packaging and my friend, Betsy Phillips, who took all the photos and my friend, Caitlin Ray to has done all these backyard videos that we've made. But I've been able to really step into myself as like someone who sees what I want the art to look like. And so yeah, I made a ton of like Pinterest boards. And I just had, I just let myself kind of trust my body like, as far as outfit choices and color palettes and photos. Like if something felt like it sat in the same place in my body. When I looked at it, as the record sounded, then I knew that it was going in the right direction. And I made have made a point to only use photos of me for the album artwork and for the single artwork that I was looking at the camera directly in the eye. That was some a decision that I made long before we chose any of those photos. I it's a funny thing, my last two album covers, I'm like looking at the camera, but my head is tilted in the same kind of way. And it's this kind of like, I've got a secret that I'm not going to tell you thing. And this record to me was just about really being comfortable and looking the audience directly in the eye and being open and proud of where I am. And in that same way I I wanted to wear a lot of color and use a lot of color because I wanted it to be a joyful statement. And I wanted it to be kind of a loud statement. Like I wanted to make kind of a loud record in general. And it's been really, really fun to put all that together. It's gotten my brain to start working differently. Like even as I'm writing music now because I I'm kind of always writing I'm I'm already starting to conceptualize the visual aspects of where this may go after this record. And I I never used to do that. But it's fun. It's fun. It's like it's it's happening simultaneously to thinking about production while I'm writing now to

Thomas Mooney 28:58

Yeah, like I always wonder if like the I guess like a lot of bands or a lot of artists when it comes to like the visual director, as he said, Did you say visual director? I'm trying to think of like the

Jillette Johnson 29:10

art director or director.

Thomas Mooney 29:13

Yeah, I'm sure like they often use like a lot of mood boards and stuff. But I was always I always wondered about like, the actual artists you as the songwriter kind of doing the same thing. Because I don't know if like a lot of people there's only been like two people have said yes, I've had mood boards and it's you and back in I guess like September I had interviewed cam and she kind of said she said the same thing as far as like having these mood boards for her record her last record and I think it was like 10 songs long and having like 10 mood boards based off the songs and i don't know i find like that all of that aspect to be interesting in the way that we're just kind of gives additional context. Ah,

Jillette Johnson 30:01

wait, did you say cam? Yeah, she's so cool. I like her so much. Yeah. Well that you guys did an interview together. Was she a fun person to interview?

Thomas Mooney 30:12

She was as much as like, I thought like, she was gonna be great. Like she was even that more better than I thought, like, a lot more, I guess. Like, it's one of those things where you all like, I don't know, people who you deem is like, super successful, you kind of wonder like, how self aware they are, you know what I mean? And she was like, she knew, like, she had thought about all this stuff. I had asked her, like, 100 times, you know. So yeah, I guess she I don't know, I just really loved talking with her. But like, I just love like the the mood board thing and like that aspect of being able to like, just like I said, you kind of give a little bit more context for where this record is and what your mindset was. And I also I didn't notice like you the head you said like, each of the the photos for this album, The Art you looking directly into the camera. The one thing I didn't notice that was a constant, though, was like you're wearing these like Air Force ones.

Jillette Johnson 31:17

Oh, yeah. That was also a decision that was made. Yeah.

Thomas Mooney 31:24

I, I'm more of a boot guy now. But like Air Force ones. Were always like, just the most comfort, comfortable like tennis shoes.

Jillette Johnson 31:34

Heck, yeah. I mean, it's funny, I did the opposite. I was always a bhoot person. And when I lived in New York, it killed my feet. I was a young person. And I had the worst feet, I had like the feet of a 78 year old. Because I was walking like five to 10 miles a day in these boots that had no support at all. But I, I actually started this hostessing job a couple of years ago, to pick up some extra cash here in town, and my husband was like, I'm buying you Air Force ones, because you're gonna be dead at the end of the night, because I had never hosted I had never been a host at the restaurant before. And I was so grateful that he knew that he was able to see in the future, because they saved me my back definitely killed me at the end of each night. But the Air Force ones really came in clutch. And then I realized that I could wear them with all of my clothes and be comfortable. And I there was just kind of no turning back.

Thomas Mooney 32:44

Yeah, it's, as he said, like, I'm you're 31 I'm 33 at a certain age like, or at a certain time you kind of go. I don't have to look cool. Like, I can just like comfort over looking cool. And the good thing about Air Force ones, though, is you do look cool.

Jillette Johnson 33:01

Thank you. I do think they're cool. Yeah,

Thomas Mooney 33:03

what I was gonna say, too, is like, obviously, like, if you look at like anyone who's on their feet all the time, comfort. Definitely. But or I was like, Oh, yes, this is like definitely, it's okay to like we're tennis shoes was look at like any wedding. And it's like, the wedding planner is there. Like, she's always this mainly women, but like, she's always like in sneakers. Yeah. So, yeah,

Jillette Johnson 33:32

well, I've never really that. I mean, I've, I guess that I'm a fairly feminine woman and a lot of aspects. But I've never really been someone that likes to be uncomfortable, especially with my feet. Like I've never really been someone that likes to wear a lot of heels. And so, yeah, I know that you're not really asking me about my shoe choice. But it's more of a natural fit. For me. I don't really feel like myself. When I'm wearing like really uncomfortable shoes. I feel like it makes such a big difference in how you're feeling your body language and like how you present yourself to other people and how you show up in a room and how you show up on photos and stuff. Like when I'm wearing uncomfortable shoes, I look pretty miserable in my face. So it's also kind of been like a choice for me. It's like okay, how do I how do I make myself the most at ease so that I can be successful in these scenarios. And that really does mean like comfortable sneakers.

Thomas Mooney 34:45

This episode of new slang is brought to you by the blue light live here in Lubbock, Texas. Blue Light has undoubtedly been my home away from home over the years and has played such a vital role not only for my development as a journalist, but obviously it's been one of the foundational pieces for a lot of your favorite songwriters and bands who have made it out of the Lubbock area over the years. And of course, as a music venue, they've played such a pivotal role for a lot of your favorite bands just in general. One of my favorite parts about blue light is just how versatile the place can truly be. I've seen it crowded and rowdy on a Saturday night for a rock and roll band. And I've seen it dead still on a Wednesday when a legendary singer songwriter rolls through town. What you should do is go over to blue light, Lubbock calm and check out all the new merch they've added hats, t shirts, both short and long sleeve. They also have hoodies and koozies just added some sweatshirts that are very much an homage to the college sweatshirt that john Belushi wore in Animal House. And then of course, maybe the crown jewel of their new merge is the varsity club style jacket and blue satin. I got one the other day. And yeah, it's just one of my favorite things I own now. And yeah, I don't know, I just love it anyway, you can check out all their new merge over at blue light Lubbock calm. As always, I'll throw a link into the show notes for easy access. Okay, let's get back to the show. You mentioned how you like you moved to Nashville a few years back and how one of the things that you found so refreshing about moving there was the atmosphere of like the the culture or not the culture, but like the community of like songwriters and musicians and like, the ability to have that collaborative process. But like, you've you know, been, I guess more of like a solo writer throughout your career. Did you ever like go in the like any venturing down like the the CO write thing? Or have you always just has that always been one of those things that you wanted to keep a little bit more uniform?

Jillette Johnson 36:53

Both I, you know, I I come into these little phases every now and then when I kind of question the way that I've done everything and and say that I need to be more open, and I broke a bunch of sessions with people, and then I walk away from them and go, Well, that was cool. I'm gonna go back to being me. And so I kind of have just always gravitated back to the way that I make music, which is generally alone in a room with a piano. I think that co writing is a really high art. And I don't know that I am particularly good at it. I mean, I haven't, I haven't practiced it that much. But I think it's a different muscle than writing alone. And I don't have a very high tolerance or writing things that I don't believe in. So it tends to like put me off of it for a while if I get in a room with somebody and I'm not feeling it, it makes me just really want to go back and never do it again. But I have but I have had some good experiences with CO writing. Like I wrote some songs with a songwriter here in town named Joe for brown many years ago, long before I ever moved to Nashville. And he and I had really good chemistry and I it's an that experiences it reminder to me that it doesn't always have to feel like you're dying. But sometimes it does. I think I'm coming into a place now where what I'm most longing for in collaboration is somebody to be a sounding board for me, because I write so many songs that I get really lost and confused and can't really tell which ones should be on a record and which ones are just like not my best work. And I I have had throughout my life, different people who've like been that sounding board for me. And they usually are really, really important in that day like push me to get better that like I trust them enough and they are fans of me enough that I feel safe to just send them everything I'm doing and that and they they expressed that they liked me enough to be able to then go like I think you can beat this or I don't think that you've written all of the songs for this record yet. So I'm searching for that right now. And and I think that that can be and Joe my producer because I do want to work with him again, but it's also just a really big ask because sending somebody like batches of 57 at a time, it's not really the kindest.

Thomas Mooney 40:08

Yeah.

I think it's always one of those things where people, like, they love the idea of that. Like, if you asked like a fan or like just someone who kind of like knew of you? Do you want to, like hear the demos like of every song. And like it like on paper, that sounds like a great idea. But then like in practice, you're like, oh, there's, if you're getting like 50 songs at a time, and you're like cutting that down to, obviously, like this record out here as 10 songs. It's a process, you know, like, and there's no way like, everything is meant to be like, on the record, I think, like part of the process, when you write that much at a, you know, the constant. I guess, like level you. Like, it's, it's about the process. Sometimes we're like, something is not necessarily ever, like meant to be cut, but like it gets you on to maybe like the next idea.

Jillette Johnson 41:14

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I think one of my biggest fears is always that I'm, like, I've written it, and just it hasn't been heard in the right context, or I haven't, I didn't see it like that. There was this song that was like, the song and I, I missed it, or somebody else was the sounding board, but they didn't hear it. And so then I threw the song away. Because, you know, that's really possible, like, I a lot of the time, is that make records are ones that I've just like, thrown in the batch, because I'm like, I'll just throw it in there. Because whatever, but I don't really think that's gonna make the record. And then that inevitably, is one of the ones that whoever's producing the record is like, we got to record this. And I mean, there's a few of those actually, on this record. And so I get really scared about that. But at the same time, I do think that you're right, it is a process, and you're just trying to capture a moment in time. So as long as you do that, and you do it well, then it's really okay. If, if there are some songs that just have to die.

Thomas Mooney 42:36

Yeah, what would like what's, what's an example of one of those songs that you just you didn't realize it was, as it was meant for the record?

Jillette Johnson 42:45

I'm so so jealous, was the last song that we recorded. And we, we initially were planning on recording, like five songs. But we, we were just on a roll and in a vibe, and we just went for it. So we were tracking live for three days. And at the end of the third day, we had like, quite a bit of time. And I turned to Joe and I was like, okay, maybe we should record one more song. And he was like, what about the song jealous? So I wrote jealous, and I played it for my husband. And he was like, yeah, that's cool. But I didn't get much of a reaction from him out of it. So immediately, I was like, This song sucks. And that because that's what I do. I'll be like, look at this thing I wrote, I'm so proud of it. And then if somebody gives me like, a medium reaction, I'm like, Oh, it's the worst thing I've ever made. Immediately, but, but Joe, Joe was like, I really think we should just try it. And then we started playing it as a band, like I started playing it and just the band. Everybody who played on this record is really good musician. So they didn't really need much, much knowledge before they jumped into each song. So everybody started playing and then as soon as we finished the song, my drummer Jamie jack was like, You're insane. This was the biggest mistake of your life almost not recording. Not that Dallas is like I don't know if jealous is gonna be like the song or whatever. But it was just really funny that it elicited this huge reaction out of Jamie, who was like, so mad at me that I put it like way at the bottom of the pile. But yeah, I think I think that's probably the most obvious example of that.

Thomas Mooney 44:53

Yeah, that's a that's probably my favorite song on the record, as well.

Jillette Johnson 44:59

Oh, cool.

Thomas Mooney 45:01

Yeah, I just I just love like the, the like, like I said, like that one right there specifically probably has like more of the guitar driven aspects than some of the other parts of the record. And it's a little bit more. I think, like one of my, I guess I'm, I do this I stammer, but I think like one of my favorite parts of this record, is that like, you do have a little bit more tongue in cheek aspects a little bit more like of your humor comes across. And I think like, that is a great example of it is, like, being intimate and like, being vulnerable, but also kind of like, a little bit more of a funnier way. I think, even though it's not like Haha, kind of funny.

Jillette Johnson 45:49

Well, I thank you for for seeing that. I, I was reflecting on this today. I think part of what led to this record. And what made me so excited about this record was I had kind of fallen out of love with music for a minute. Like, I I just stopped liking music, I stopped listening to music, I stopped liking writing music, it just felt really heavy and stagnant for me for a while. And after that period of time, I mean, it took a lot of work to kind of get myself out of that place because I think really what was happening is I was I was a little heartbroken and I was like feeling a little insecure about my career and and then I just decided that it didn't matter. And that I needed to stop taking myself too seriously. And, and I started being able to see the things that really did make me happy beyond just music. And it brought me full circle back to this place where I felt deeply deeply back in love with music, but I needed it to be not so fucking intense, like not so Fear not so heavy like I need. I mean, I love Perry Nelson and Randy Newman and Loudon Wainwright. These are all songwriters that like, really implement humor and levity and, and get to talk about shit, that's really difficult. But they do it in this way that you just know, they know that. It's all important, but it's all just also like meaningless. And yeah, kind of leaning into that mentality really helped me get out of this dark, like heavy place. And now I'm in I'm at this point where sometimes it's not, it doesn't feel so alive when I'm writing. And that's okay, that just kind of happens. And then and then I'll turn it back on again, at some point. But when I'm listening to music, I just am so moved in a way that I think is almost new, like, I don't know, if I ever have been as affected by music as I am right now. It's very cool.

Thomas Mooney 48:23

Yeah, like, I think like those, the writers you just mentioned right there, they have the ability to talk about like, these, like, the most intimate and like most vulnerable moments in life, but then also, in a turn, like, just, I always just think of like roger miller songs, as well as kind of being like, you know, just very, very humorous and very out there. And, like having a little bit of both, and yeah, like it, there's a lot of that on this record in, like the form of like, Annie, of course has like this little aspect of that in there. And like, like I said, jealous and graveyard boyfriend, like they all have like a little bit more. It's not so serious. And it can be music doesn't always have to be the, you know, the

the blues?

Jillette Johnson 49:20

No, well, it doesn't always have to be anything. And I think that's what's really cool about getting to make albums is you can express different things. They're different records like I was in a really serious place when I made my second record. And that was appropriate for that time. And then I started touring that record quite a bit and it was cathartic, but then I started really hating it because it was so serious. And that was what led me to here because I was like I need to be able to get on stage and like really laugh. And have fun playing the songs like I don't want to put myself back into the little depression black hole every time I think song

Thomas Mooney 50:08

want to break one more time to talk about our pals over at Desert door and offer a handful of my favorite go twos. By no means am I an experienced mixologist or bartender or anything like that, but these have been super easy to make and great ways to unwind in the evening. Let's start off by upping your ranch water game a little bit by subbing desert Dorian, I'm a simple man, I just kind of take a topo Chico take a couple of drinks out at some desert door and top it off with a few lime wedges. I'm actually pretty big on the palomas now to what I'll do is take some desert door, some grapefruit juice, a dash of a GAVI nectar and some fresh lime juice. And I'm kind of big on lime. So I'll throw in another wedge or two when I pour it over some ice. And actually, I'll do the exact same thing, but I'll substitute some pineapple for the great fruit for a changeup. And now that the weather is dipping down, I started having a desert door version of a hot toddy, put some door and some honey together and give it a mix. Add an Earl Grey tea bag with some boiling hot water, let it just sit for a minute. Remember, patience is a virtue. And then of course, I'll squeeze in a little bit of lemon just to have that balance. Anyway, desert door, it's as versatile as vodka and more refined, smooth and complex than tequila. It's rich and balanced. So whatever your go to is, it'll do the trick. For more info on desert door, check the show notes. All right, back to the episode. Yeah, you've mentioned how like you, you write at, you know, regular pace, like that's a constant. I guess like you, you probably have a little bit more stability when it comes to writing than a lot of songwriters that I probably know. And it's always different as far as how it gets written down. But is there like a like, Is there like a, you had all like the the conditions, right? Is there like a certain specific kind of regimen that you go through that to? To get in that space?

Jillette Johnson 52:05

Yeah, it's developed over the years. Like a wide open day, is a really helpful thing. Like No, no tasks that need to get done, which is their thing that's becoming rarer and rare. But a wide open day, and a day where I am able to do something that brings me into the present moment. So usually that's meditating, sometimes it's meditating and going for a long walk. But just something that kind of like, connects me to, to the world around me, and gets me out of like, a weird cycles gets me out of my phone, I'll say that the antithesis of getting me into a place where I can write is anything to do with my phone. The minute that I get stuck in my phone is the minute that my creativity just completely dies. But it's not it's pretty a morphus. And, and often, like, writing leads to writing. So yeah, I think writing a song gets me open, like forcing myself into it. And it's usually kind of clumsy and feels stiff at first. And then I'll maybe be a little bit defeated, because I'll know that that's the case, but my brain will have started kind of working in that way again, and then it'll allow for little ideas to pop up and, and my brain will be in a place where it's listening to those little ideas again, because there's always that kind of happening. But I think it's not always that we're able to hear the small voice that leads to a song or an essay, or whatever it is that you're making. So that's part of their, like, quiet practices, too. Because the voices really are literally small and very quiet.

Thomas Mooney 54:20

Yeah, the who was I speaking with now? It was, I can't remember who it was. I think it was a he had like this really great analogy for it. And like hearing those small voices, and his comparison was Russell Crowe's character in a beautiful mind. How like, he was always seeing like he was schizophrenic and he was saying like, these equations, these math equations all over, like out in the, you know, visually, and in a lot of ways like songs or like that like song ideas or just like ideas and It's always like, as you're kind of saying, listening to those voices, listen, like I given it, the proper space and time to actually be able to pluck them out of the sky. And let them like grow. I always find like that to be really, really interesting, because I think so many, so often we think of the song being written, like, starting whenever you pick up the instrument, or sit down at the instrument, and start writing, physically, but a lot of times, you've been thinking about these ideas, even subconsciously, for a minute. And sometimes it is like that quiet space, like the yoga that you're talking about, or like the long walks to actually, like, get those ideas at you, is there like anything that like, has been something that has, like stuck with you for like, a long, long time on this record? And then it was finally, you know, months or even like a year or something like that weeks? before? Like you were able to, like actually sit down and like, get it out?

Jillette Johnson 56:11

You know, I think the answer is no, I, I tend to start and finish songs in one sitting, or at least in one span of time where I almost get there and then get up and like get a glass of water and walk around and then come sit back down. It is super rare that I'll write part of something, and not finish it, and then come back to it a long time later. But I will say that, like I shouldn't go anywhere, for example, was the first song that I it's the earliest song that I wrote on this record. And it has stuck around for a long time. And because of that, it's seen a few different different iterations. And like, worn a few different personalities. And that's been really interesting that by the time, I brought it to Joe, I was kind of sick of it. Like I'd played it so many times, I just kind of felt like I kicked all the life out of it. But the minute that I started playing it, in Joe's studio, it felt really different. And like, even before he played anything along, it just felt it just took on a different tone. And that really speaks to Joe and, and my dynamic like he and I have a pretty deep connection. I think we both feel and, and it's it's music, but it kind of goes beyond music. Like I think we we see each other pretty clearly. And playing music in front of Joe bring something else out in me. So all of a sudden that song took on this, like lightness that I hadn't felt before. And then he started playing guitar along to it. And this was like before we were recording this was just when we were figuring out what songs we might want to record on the record. And the minute he started playing along it just was like it just lit me up in such a beautiful way. So that was a really cool experience. I love to see that in songs how they can take on different lives. And I think that's part of what I love about doing music professionally. Like the opportunity to get to grow a world out of this thing that you make alone and see kind of like it just kind of it grows beyond you and it kind of is out of your hands at some point and it's really really cool

Thomas Mooney 59:04

Yeah, like it's I that's what I love about art too is the you have ownership of the song but like there's like this version of the song for me as well like even just as a listener that will what I get out of it you know? And it's it's it's really interesting I guess you know, relationship not necessarily relationship but like I guess conversation between you in the song and in the song and the listener I wanted to like end on this and that was the you know, you cut that away song champagne supernova recently on one Yeah. Was it our vinyl sessions?

Jillette Johnson 59:48

Yeah.

Thomas Mooney 59:50

For starters, like a like, what was it about like, that song specifically that you're like, Oh, I want to cut that too. And then to like I I feel like as a just a regular guy just listening to music. Anytime I listened to a laces, which has been one of my favorite bands, you just constantly think about like singing like lamb or no, in that like, English accent. Was there ever? Did you think about that? Or did you like have to refrain from doing that? Or is that just like when you're an artist, you don't do that.

Jillette Johnson 1:00:25

I think sometimes that happens subconsciously, we sing like the people that we listen to a lot, or like, the way that they've sung their songs, if we're doing covers, we do think like them sometimes in particular people, particularly people who have like really strong accents, for sure. But for some reason that just didn't show up when I started singing it. And so I just didn't question it. So I chose to do that song for a couple of different reasons. One was, I know that song really, really well, because my brother was a really big Oasis fan. And when we were kids, he used to play that song for me when we were like hanging out in his bedroom. Like, I was like, six or seven or something. And I just I miss my brother, and I just wanted to sing a song that reminded me of him. But also, that song has always felt like this kind of hopeful, but humbled statement, that it like he they touch on mortality, like they touch on. Like a feeling maybe a higher being like, it's really open ended. And I know that both of the brothers have said that they don't know what that sounds about. But to me, it's always kind of felt like this, like, oh, we're there's, there's more that I don't understand. And I think this year has really felt that way. Like, there's so much that's out of our control. And we don't know where it's heading. And we're just gonna have to sit with that. And try to be okay. Um, so it felt like an appropriate song to sing.

Thomas Mooney 1:02:31

Yeah, no, I definitely get that out of that. There's a little bit of that optimism of the unknown. And I think like a lot of people maybe don't feel optimism in the unknown, but I don't know, for some reason I always kind of do.

Jillette Johnson 1:02:47

Oh, yeah, I do, too. I feel much more at peace. And hopeful when I remember that. I don't know what's going on.

Thomas Mooney 1:02:57

Yeah, for sure. The and that this year has provided plenty of that. Yeah, it's been really, really great. Talk me

Jillette Johnson 1:03:10

likewise. So

Thomas Mooney 1:03:12

yeah, well, thank you so much for taking some time to talk with me about this new album, songwriting and everything that's attached to that.

Jillette Johnson 1:03:22

My pleasure, Thomas. I hope you have a good day out in the windy wild, west of Texas.

Thomas Mooney 1:03:32

Alright, that is it for this one. Be sure to check out Jillette's new album out this Friday, February 12. Go check out our presenting partners over at Desert door, the blue light live and hot damn coffee, check out the merch store. Join the Patreon and yeah, I'll see you all later this week for another episode.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai