157: Ben Nichols of Lucero
On Episode 157, I'm joined by singer-songwriter Ben Nichols of the Memphis alt-country outfit Lucero. Lucero is releasing their latest efforts, the atmospheric adventure When You Found Me, this Friday, January 29. It marks as the band's 10th studio album and finds Nichols and company further expanding their sonic and storytelling legs. Songs like "Coffin Nails" is one of Nichols' finest moments as he details the complex relationships between fathers & sons and the things we pass on from one generation to the next. The radiating "Have You Lost Your Way" and the piano-laden "When You Found Me" are perfect bookends that play off one another while the piercing "Outrun the Moon," rollicking "Back in Ohio," and "A City on Fire" are rich vignettes drenched in Southern Gothic tones and mood.
During this one, we talk about the rich storytelling and writing of When You Found Me, some inspirations behind the songs, recording the album during a pandemic, the various challenges, being a Memphis band with strong ties and identity, and some of our favorite Southern writers and TV shows.
This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol. In addition, this episode is sponsored by The Blue Light Live and Hot Damn Coffee.
Interview Transcript
Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.
Thomas Mooney 0:02
everyone welcome back to New slang. I'm music journalist Thomas Mooney. This is Episode 157. And for today's episode, I am joined by songwriter Ben Nichols of the one and only loose Sarah. So Sarah has this new album coming out tomorrow, that will be Friday, January 29. It is called winning found me. I was thinking about this earlier, I feel that Lou Cerro kind of gets typecast or pigeon holed as a band, as kind of only being this like rough and tumble all country band who only sings about drinking and bars and heartache and heartbreak. And yeah, there's undoubtedly been a lot of that over the years, it's probably why you fell in love with Lou Cerro in the first place. I know it was for me. But it's really interesting to see just how much been in the band have progressed over the years, both in a sonic way. And in their storytelling. These past few albums have really been one of my favorite iterations of the band. And as much as I love Tennessee, and that much further west, and that era of the band, I really love this expanding Sonic palette of among the ghosts and this new album. There's this really nice atmosphere of touch that's happening throughout both records that really plays well with the storytelling. We speak a lot about that storytelling and those cinematic tones on here. I won't rehash and spoil all the topic points in this intro here. So we'll start with the actual interview here in like two seconds. Before we do though, let's state the obvious. If you haven't subscribed to Newsline just yet, go ahead and do so. Give the podcast a five star review over on iTunes. Be sure to check out the new sling merge store and the Patreon I actually just threw everything on sale in the merch store too. That's t shirts, koozies magnet stickers, and new slang monthly postcard prints. They're all on sale. Yeah, let's do that thing where you buy things on the internet and I'll send them to you in the mail. I'll throw all the vital links into the show notes. Today's presenting partner is our pals over at Desert door Texas Soto. If you're asking yourself, what exactly desert door or a SoTL is? Well, it's a premium high quality spirit that is similar to a tequila or Moscow but in my estimation, it's more refined, smooth and fragrant. It has a distinct and intriguing palette that picks up on hints of vanilla and citrus while maintaining a healthy earthiness that is quite enjoyable. One of my favorite features about desert door is just how versatile It really is. If you want to feel fancy and a little highbrow, it's perfect for a variety of cocktails that call for lime wedges and core salt, chopped ginger, a god they nectar sprigs of time and sticks of cinnamon threw down to borrow some fresh fruit, all that kind of stuff. It's perfect. It's great for experimentation and fine tuning all of your mixologist skills. And then also if you're a little bit more down home and casual. You got that denim jacket on. It's just perfect for those short and sweet simple go to favorites that hit the mark every time. I'm talking about ranch waters and Moscow mules and palomas and and Mexican Coca Cola with desert door. What I love so much about desert door is just how genuine and an authentically West Texan they are as well. They go out and harvest SoTL plants out in the wild and are aware and knowledgeable conservationists at heart. So next time you're at your neighborhood liquor store, get yourself a bottle of desert door. I'll throw a link into the show notes for more information. Alright, let's get into the actual interview here is Ben Nichols
of loose arrow.
Yeah, well,
I guess like where I want to start out with is like, obviously, you have this new record when you found me coming out. And it is that 10th Studio record. And not necessarily one of those things where I guess like you are constantly looking back at your career as a whole. But, you know, 10 is like a pretty big number as far as a time that you could reflect on is there been much reflection on like, you know, you guys made it to 10 Studio records. an accomplishment you know,
Ben Nichols 4:29
you know, you never really crossed my mind. It was just the next record to make. And I guess if you count the added tapes, which was that was just recorded on a cassette eight track dashcam and my guitar players dad's attic. With that record, we've got 11 so but I guess you're in studio albums. Oh, this is the 10th one. But no, we just we were kind of expanding on, on the things we've done on the last record among the ghost. I think that was my favorite album, that Sarah has done so far. Just overall, I think it's got a nice balance and consistency to it. And just, like everything we've learned over the last 20 some odd years of making albums, I think it kind of comes together, the best. The songwriting, the playing the, the mixing, I think it all kind of comes together the best on among the ghosts. So we really just wanted to, to kind of expand on on what we did with that record. Which is exactly what when, when you tell me does, it's got a little bit of the same kind of mood and tone, which is a little bit darker. A little bit, I don't know, meaner, or melancholy, maybe some combination of all that stuff, with a few new sounds on it. Some different kinds of keyboards and synthesizers that we hadn't really used much in the past. So we kind of pushed that stuff a little bit further this time. But, um, but now, as far as the significance of the number 10 No, we were kind of too busy to really think about it too much, I guess.
Thomas Mooney 6:19
Yeah. You know, you mentioned like those synth sounds you know, there was there was some real good hints at at that during among the ghosts, you guys started putting a little bit more texture that on beyond that atmospheric element. And of course, like during this, you know, you it's obviously like that next step, that next progression that evolution.
Yeah, yeah, I
really love obviously, when a band a isn't like afraid to just continue to, you know, progress. And you're not trying to make that first record 10 times.
Ben Nichols 6:55
Yeah, that would be that would be some version of hell. For me if I had if I had to remake self titled or Tennessee over and over again. This is among the ghosts. The last record, we we did use this a Mellotron and maybe, maybe a mode or something is buried in there somewhere. But it was pretty subtle. Here, the synthesizers and the Mellotron stick out on top a little bit more. And that was just, I don't know, yeah, it was a fun kind of logical direction to go. At the moment, we've had, we've had weird stuff on records ever since Tennessee, there's drum machines on a few of those early records, and some experimental effects and things here and there. But, uh, but yeah, letting the sense really kind of carry the songs. In some of these songs were actually written on the keyboard. I don't do that very often. But, uh, the songs kind of, they started off some of them as just pieces I was working on for my little brother, Jeff Nichols, and possibly using, he's a filmmaker, I was thinking maybe he could use some of this stuff, for soundtrack types, things. And so they kind of started off in this kind of sense, cinematic kind of space. And it came time to make a new stereo record. And so some of these pieces kind of evolved into zero songs. Sort of the kind of keyboard synthesizer element was kind of baked into them from the very beginning. And we just kind of ran with it.
Thomas Mooney 8:43
Yeah, I've always really loved that kind of that atmospherics, I guess like element of, of a record when it comes to this. Like just that, as you put it, like the cinematic kind of stuff. It's just like, adds another texture, another layer that you just feel like that that world that's been created in this song, or in this record, is just a little bit more real and a little bit more rooted in, in I don't know, like the, I don't know, it just feels more real. My opinion.
Ben Nichols 9:11
Yeah, I'm a sucker for I'm a sucker for that, for creating that atmosphere. And, and I just, I really like songs. It sounds cheesy, but songs that make you feel like you're in a movie. You know, songs that kind of are your own personal soundtrack and make you feel, you know, whatever, like, make you feel tougher than you actually are and make you feel, you know, more important than you actually are, that take you someplace else and kind of make you someone else. I don't know. And in songs like that, sometimes have that kind of cinematic atmosphere to them. That's, I don't know. It's something that's always struck me in that I've always liked and so it's It's cool to work that until the SEO record.
Thomas Mooney 10:03
Yeah, I think that like, people love that thing. Because you can relate it to when you're like driving, right?
Ben Nichols 10:10
Like, yeah,
Thomas Mooney 10:11
if you have like, there's a reason why you have the radio on. And it's not just the
Exactly. Or like,
why people when they're working out, they have like that high energy mix, you know, whatever the case.
Ben Nichols 10:23
Yeah, I guess that's Yeah, no, that's a good example as well. But yeah, yeah, that those driving songs. Yeah, there's a reason why I'm not listening to talk radio. You're listening to music? Because, yeah, you're, you're kind of in that moment. And, yeah, it's kind of your own personal soundtrack movie soundtrack. And, um, yeah, I've always, that's kind of how I've always listened to music.
Thomas Mooney 10:48
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I feel like this record has done to also kind of like challenge that palette for me is, I think, like, a lot of people. When they think of like that synth, in the end, I guess in relation ship to like rock and roll, you think more of the, like the Springsteen born in the USA kind of stuff, right? Like the rule, like wide openness and right. There's certainly some of that on this record. But I also think, like, it's, it's made me realize, Oh, you know, like, this stuff really works well, for, you know, more of a southern Gothic fill, and more of a southern Gothic. I guess, like,
Ben Nichols 11:33
I'll buy that, you know? Yeah, no, by that, I've always been inspired by the classic rock I kind of grew up on in the 80s. And, you know, the tasteful stuff is the Bruce Springsteen and the Tom Petty. And, um, you know, those are the, those are the things that you're allowed to allow to like, but I like the cheesy stuff, too. I like to the foreigner in the journey. I appreciate those a lot as well. And so that radio, the 80s, kind of radio sound was definitely an influence on this record. But I kind of forget how ingrained I am with the kind of alternative music of that era, as well. So in the 80s, you also had stuff like the cure. And I don't know that kind of darker indie rock kind of stuff. That had a lot of these sounds on it, as well. And so songs like, it hasn't been released yet. But when the record comes out, folks will hear pull me close, don't let go. which I think has has some of that more underground element from that era. So yeah, this sense can take you to different directions, kind of the more stadium rock stuff, or to their kind of underground sound. And I don't know, both of them are kind of tied up and wound together. All throughout this record.
Thomas Mooney 13:07
Yeah,
I always like I think, like, for you, I was born like an 87. So I think whenever I guess, whatever, like you grew up around, right? In that teenage years, you always just think of like what was bright before it is kind of like maybe like the worst music ever or something because it's your parents music essentially.
Ben Nichols 13:27
You've got to rebel. Yeah, you've got to rebel some,
Thomas Mooney 13:29
and you know, it's been just in these last few years that I've really gone back and like, man, the 80s are so underrated when it comes to having like the pop sensibility of a lot like, as you mentioned, like the cure, like a lot of these, like more indie rock college rock bands. Like Yeah, we're still being played on the radio, even if it wasn't a college, city setting, you know, and there's just so many more, there's a lot more diverse sounds than I think. You kind of like, I guess it's just more generalized. There's like one sound but there's a lot of diversity as far as like the kind of sounds
Ben Nichols 14:09
Yeah, for sure. And we don't, I don't know my luckily my keyboard player Rick stuff. He's got this awesome collection of kind of vintage since and analog since and, and as well as new stuff. He's got an amazing collection of keyboards. And so he knows kind of what to tap into, and which direction might be most applicable. So he brought in a whole bunch of things and we just kind of played around with stuff. And um, yeah, it was it was it was kind of fun experimenting with those sounds in that variety and diversity of sounds. But yeah, when you know, when you get it all on there and kind of mix it all together and boil it all down. I think we did a pretty good job of you know, still making another sterile record. I think It still sounds like us.
Thomas Mooney 15:02
Yeah, most definitely. And, you know, I really obviously would have loved just kind of like you guys venturing or yourself specifically, venturing more into those third person narratives, those vignettes.
I mean, like,
I think you've really been doing a lot of your, your best storytelling, these past few records in that capacity.
Ben Nichols 15:28
Thank you. I've been something I've been consciously working on. Yeah, a lot of those earlier. songs. were definitely just kind of First Person. You know, what was going on in my life? You know, pretty, pretty straightforward. Almost like diary, diary entries, which those can be all right, sometimes. But just as a songwriter, I don't know, thinking more about the craft of songwriting and storytelling. It's, I don't know, I think it's rewarding to kind of push beyond that. And it's not something that came naturally to me. We've had songs in the past, like the war, which was about my granddad in Europe in World War Two. And the bike riders, it was based on a book of photographs and interviews. I've tried these kind of third person storytelling things before and I think I'm getting I think I'm starting to get a little bit better at them. It's always tricky finding
other folks stories to tell. But, uh, but yeah, there's a few of those on this record.
I don't know back in Ohio is kind of the main example. The story of this guy. William Morgan, is a true story of a guy from Ohio who went down and ended up fighting in the Cuban Revolution, with pro democracy rebels. And when Petro took over and hooked up with the communists. Yeah, Billy Morgan ended up in front of a firing squad. But his whole life story was very interesting. And I feel bad, I kind of just scratched the surface of his story and kind of made this throwback rock and roll song. With I turned his whole life into just rock and roll lyrics. And I feel a little bad about shortchanging him because his life was so interesting. But uh, but the song functions as I intended it to, I wanted something kinda like warnings, vines, lawyers, guns and money here. rolling the head of this Thomson gun or something. That's kind of what I was shooting for. But the more I've learned about William Morgan, the more he's got, you can write a whole concept album, about his life. But um, but then there's also stories about there's there's another granddad song on there called coffin nails,
Thomas Mooney 17:51
right.
Ben Nichols 17:52
And then out on the moon, the first thing that we released it's basically a little more vague. But, you know, it was kind of started off as a murder ballad. Or maybe there's a number maybe not, I don't know, it's hard to tell exactly what happens in the song, in my mind is some kind of, I don't know, revenge song that happens in raw our console off of Interstate 40. Continuing to young girl and her stepdad. But yeah, I like that. It's fairly vague. Although with the video that we did, we did a lyric video, and I illustrated and animated some of these images that I had in my head that kind of went along with the song. And so that actually, once I did those illustrations, and animated this video that kind of looks a little more concrete. It kind of gave you more of a clue what I was thinking when I was thinking those words, but um, but yeah, that's it. That's definitely a story song. It's not about me. Not not directly out of my life. Although it might have been inspired by my little girl, Izzy, with her around hanging out, hanging out with a little girl all the time. I don't know. I think subconsciously, I might be more inclined to write songs from a young girl's perspective, which is brand new for me. I've never done that really before at all. So yeah, having kind of a young girl is that the heroine or main character of your story in the song is something I might do more of that too. In the future. We'll see.
Thomas Mooney 19:32
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Ben Nichols 20:58
Alright, let's
Thomas Mooney 20:59
get back to the episode.
Yeah, yeah, the, you know, I think I can speak for a lot of people around my age, and that I noticed, especially like my friends, you know, those early loose arrow records, that was like the soundtrack of our 20s. And, you know, you kind of always think like, all these songs right here. This is, this is what it's like to be in your 20s. And to be, you know, I guess a little bit more ragtag a little bit more going to the bar, kind of stuff?
Ben Nichols 21:36
Oh, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah, of course, that's,
Thomas Mooney 21:39
that's my whole point on it is like, you know, that really fit and personifies a lot of people's lives for hopefully, like, you know, not their entire lives.
Ben Nichols 21:50
Right, right. And I think that's, yeah, and that's what the last one, when you found me, kind of addresses that fact. It kind of addresses the fact that maybe it's been too long in that part of my life, that part of my life kind of dragged out as far as, as good as far as I could push it. And in that getting older and actually transitioning into, I don't know, more of a family life with my own family. That kind of saved me into this whole new perspective that, that transition from one way of living to another. Yeah, I guess there's some of that on this record as well. I hadn't really thought of that much before. But yeah, yeah. The songwriting has changed a little bit. And the perspective has changed a little bit. And yeah, as my life has changed.
Thomas Mooney 22:43
Yeah, well, I find it really interesting that you say, you know, that the third person stuff, the more storytelling aspects, those songs, it wasn't like a natural fit, you know, you had to work on it. And I think that like, you know, a lot of times people think, Oh, yeah, you're a songwriter, storytelling just gonna be natural. Just be correct. It's, it's, uh, you know, God given talent, if you will, or something like that. But, you know, a lot of times it's the patients and the work ethic and the, the, I guess, like finding those stories, obviously, you know, right.
Ben Nichols 23:21
Yeah. Yeah, maybe for some people is God given, but I think the folks that are really good at it. Yeah. You're Bruce Springsteen's your, your Tom Waits, folks in, I don't know, Randy Newman's and people like that, that can weave these stories. Yeah, I'm feeling they put a lot of time and effort and work in and just observation. You know, just gathering these ideas and these characters. I don't know, that's something I wish I was better. But I'm trying to get better at it. But I think that's something that these guys do so well. is. Yeah, they just collect these characters. And that's, yeah, that's something I'm working towards.
Thomas Mooney 24:08
Yeah. Well, is it? I'm assuming that like, part of what comes natural is the the narrative part. But what's maybe the challenge is, is the challenge like stepping away from yourself? And like, trying to think from a different perspective? Is that where like the the real challenges?
Ben Nichols 24:27
I think, I think the real challenge is actually finding where to put yourself into the story. Because it's really easy to tell somebody else's story. And you've got all the facts and you've got, you know, the character in the situation, but it just, it doesn't quite ring true. There's a certain heart to it, maybe that's missing. There's something that's missing. And so really, it's the tricky part is finding a way to make that story your own in a way And putting whatever drew you to the story in the first place, or whatever, you know, really stuck with you or, you know, whatever. Whatever you found intriguing about it or emotional about it, and trying to translate that, inject that into the story. Best case, I think that's kind of the tricky part. But the heartfelt stuff is, is obvious when you're writing about, you know, the girl that won't answer your phone calls. Or, you know, the loss in your own in your own life, that stuff can come through pretty easily. But trying to take, you know, a story that has touched you in that way, and then retell it. So that, you know, makes that same connection with the listener. That's the that's, that's the magic part. That's the tricky part, right?
Thomas Mooney 25:58
Yeah. You mentally go mentioned coffin nail. That's Yeah, one of the songs that just keeps on like, I find myself just going back to that song.
Ben Nichols 26:09
Thank you. That's, that's one of my favorites on the record. Yeah. Well, you
Thomas Mooney 26:12
have that Tim O'Brien, reference in there.
Ben Nichols 26:16
Yeah, The Things They Carried. I read that book in college. And it's stuck with me. I've read it numerous times. short book of short stories, all based on his experience, the author's experience in in Vietnam. And that the first story in the book is The is titled, The Things They Carried. That was the first story of his he read. And a lot of it is yeah, literally lists of things they carried and how much they weighed. ounce by ounce. And I don't know just the way he wove that into a very heartbreaking story. It made a big impression on me. So that I know, I've seen a little bit in the past about my granddad and him being a veteran. I don't know. So that's always been something I've been interested in. And I was, this sounds kind of, I don't know, it's about fathers and sons. It mentioned my great grandfather's name was john Rufus. And I kind of that just happened to fit into this song. I wasn't planning on writing a song about my great grandfather, but I needed a name and his name happened to fit. And that kind of led to writing the rest of it. But uh, I don't know it's the Kim O'Brien references seem to seem to work with a song about guys that had been in World War One in World War Two as well.
Thomas Mooney 27:50
Yeah, well, you have that that line. That's kind of really The, the, I guess, like the turn of the song though. The big chorus punches, like, you know, I weigh my deeds on my father's scales.
Ben Nichols 28:01
Yeah.
Thomas Mooney 28:03
Where did when did that kind of, like, come into the picture for the song as far as like, you know, was it kind of like a light bulb going off?
Ben Nichols 28:12
Yeah, it was, that was one of those lines where I got lucky. And I'm, like I said, I started with the, with that idea of something from the dark coming down and landed on the windows ceiling, crying all night, like the parents. You know, when someone's about to die, that Banshee comes, comes by the house, you can hit it, or whatever, that was kind of the original spark of the song. And then so I needed a name, I needed somebody to be dying and kind of stumbled across across my great granddad's name. And so that's that was where the song started. And then I, as I was just thinking through, and I got to that courtroom for the course. That's just the line about Yeah, weighing weighing yourself on your father's scales. That's one of those lines that was just kind of floating out there. And I was lucky enough to kind of grab it as it was floating by, it just kind of popped into my head. Yeah, those are those kind of lines, where you don't really feel like you wrote them, you feel like they were there already. And you just happen to grab it out of the sky. So and then that kind of really made everything the whole song kind of click together. It was kind of a complete circle then. So yeah, that's, that's what you're aiming for as a songwriter is to find all the pieces and make them fit together in the right way. It's rare, it's rare. You hope to have a few of those on an album. And so yeah, if you can get one that really works like that. You feel pretty good.
Thomas Mooney 29:51
Yeah, like that. Just, you know, obviously, you mentioned the song about beat. This is a song about fathers and sons and like just that line right there. Just This has really resonated with me. Because like, I feel like you your entire life, just, you're always kind of like measuring yourself against those who come before you.
Ben Nichols 30:11
Yeah, definitely. I think that's a very common feeling among everybody. And I've always heard stories about my granddad and yeah, the interdependency issues he had with his father that then led to my dad, with my granddad. And how these things kind of compound over time, are passed down from one generation to the next. Yeah, it seems like kind of a continuous continuous thing that I figured lots of folks can relate to. I
Thomas Mooney 30:48
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Ben Nichols 32:33
think that love is great. Yeah,
Thomas Mooney 32:35
yeah. Well, is there is there any more I know like it was kind of more of a touchstone for the last record as far as like you being you know, really talking about a lot of these. I guess we will call them like modern Southern Gothic writers. Right? Is it been more is ever you've still been pulling from these guys.
Ben Nichols 32:57
Man. I haven't read. I haven't added. My reading has changed. I'm not sure what I'm reading nowadays. But, but but all those writers that I was reading at the time, Ron rash, and Mary Brown. And yeah, Tim O'Brien he's not really Southern, but he fits in with these short story writers. Mary Cruz, some other guys. That stuff even though I'm not reading their stories, right now, it's all it's all kind of, in, in there, it's all in my brain. And I, I find myself going back to that kind of stuff quite a bit. Whenever I'm writing, that stuff is kind of always there. And so So yeah, I guess with on this new record on when you found me? Oh, yeah, LeBron kind of pops up with. He's got a book called Fe. It's about a young girl on the run kind of out on our own. In Mississippi. And, and that's, that's kind of the type of character I had in mind when I wrote about random moon, which is about a young girl as well. So she Yeah, because every brown reference isn't really, it's not really a reference. It's not a specific, it's more just to the inspiration is there. Like I said, it's that stuff. I like it so much. It made such a big impression on me that all that stuff is kind of
Thomas Mooney 34:22
is always there. Yeah, were you if you'd like are you a fan of like, the Charles portis?
Ben Nichols 34:30
Yeah. Arkansas guy.
Thomas Mooney 34:32
Yeah, well, that's Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Arkansas tie there.
Ben Nichols 34:36
Yeah, yeah. Arkansas author. And yeah, true. grit, of course, was a book of his. And yeah, I haven't read a lot of his stuff. Unfortunately. I should read more. But um, yeah, I have a feeling. I've always known about him. But I'm just one of those things that's on your radar and just kind of slips by, of course. I'm a fan of both. Trueblood movies. But um, but yeah, I need to I need to, I need to put him on my list of stuff to stuff to read again. I have a feeling it would all be right up my alley.
Thomas Mooney 35:12
Yeah, the, there's this podcast I listened to that's kind of about media. And it's called the press box. And like, they all talk about books that you should be reading yada yada, yada. And it's it's one of those things like drink every time you they mentioned dog at the south by truck. It's gonna come like every episode, basically,
Ben Nichols 35:34
man, I started that book and never never, I just put it down and didn't take it back up. I need to I need to get back into it and finish that one. I'll put that on my list of things to do.
Thomas Mooney 35:46
Yeah, you know, the, what I guess with what's been interesting has been, you know, so I'm going to backtrack a little bit. I'm going to cut this little bit out because I, I know what I'm going to say. But I rambling on here.
Ben Nichols 36:00
It's all good. All good. I did, I did the same thing.
Thomas Mooney 36:05
You know, it's been really interesting, because this past year, obviously, with with the pandemic, most of these songwriters and others that I've talked with, you know, they, their records have all been at least recorded pre pandemic, and it was the release of the record in the during this time. Right, always record though, I'm starting to get, I'm starting to talk with people more and more who recorded sometime within this past year. And of course, like, you know, this, that's all these other extra elements of precaution. Right, that have been taken into account. And obviously, you guys recorded this in Memphis, and, you know, masks and quarantine, and like, you know, all the all the stuff that you would expect. What when it comes to like, the actual like, the, you know, the collaborative, the collaborative aspect of of this record, before you even step into the studio, what was that like, as far as like, sharing ideas and sharing songs? And like, you know, the demo process,
Ben Nichols 37:14
right, and everything? Right? Yeah, the writing process for this record was drastically different than anything we've done in the past, just because of the lock downs. Usually leading up to a regular recording a record. Yeah, we do a lot of rehearsal together. And, and, you know, I've usually got a fairly solid idea of what the songs are, when I bring them to the band, I usually have at least a verse in a course. And I know the vocal pattern that I'm going to put on top of it, even if I don't have the lyrics. But I'll usually take that to the guys, and then, you know, we'll flesh it out and build it up from there. In this case, with this, yeah, we got done with tour in March. And we're planning on going into the studio, you know, April, or may, maybe. And so, you know, in normal times, we would come home from tour and basically started rehearsing and writing. But, uh, this time, we went right into lockdown. And so I just went into my basement and started working on these demos. And I was adding, you know, drum machines and more keyboards and extra guitars, and I was really fleshing them out. mainly just because I had the time to, to work on them. So then, you know, recording is postponed to mid summer, I believe we were in there, the beginning of July. Just because we were waiting for the COVID numbers to go down to where we at least felt like, I don't know, it was at least it wasn't too risky. But um, yes, I emailed the guys, these demos, and everybody kind of learn their parts on their own. And, and that was a Yeah, that's not how we've done things in the past. So when we got into the studio, it was definitely more chore of deconstructing the demos and chipping away at these kind of maybe overly dense demos that I've done. And you will await those until you find underneath. And I and the guys figured out how to kind of interpret these parts in their own ways. And it was a really short process. We did all that. And just like we had a couple of days of rehearsal, before we went into Sam Phillips recording service, and we were in there for about two weeks. So yeah, it was a much more focused kind of intense process. The among the ghosts we recorded a week here a week there over the course of a year, and would go on tour in between, and listen to mixes and then come back and record some more stuff and go on tour and listen to new mixes. And that one had more time to kind of just, I don't know. We, we could ruminate on that one longer. This one got ring fairly fast. So, yeah, it was kind of like I said, it was reverse it was whittling away or chipping away at the songs rather than building them up. So I don't know, I think we got we got the results we wanted. And we can work either way. But uh, I think if I my preference, I like the more collaborative way of rehearsing before you go into the studio, rather than just working completely in isolation, which was the case with this one? That's, that gets a little lonely.
Thomas Mooney 41:01
Yeah, there's this. I guess, like the first song that the first thing that was released, what I felt was like this, like space rock element.
And yeah,
you know, it's kind of this funny, strange thing where, you know, when you think of like space movies, you think of like the isolation and like these close quarters. There's like, I don't necessarily think that's like, necessarily what you guys were working on. But like, there's this aspect. I love it being a part of it. Yeah.
Ben Nichols 41:31
I've never thought of that before. But that's a no, that's great. I like that comparison. Is it more interviews in the future? Yeah, no, that hadn't crossed my mind. But I like that. There's definitely something I think, to that. Yeah, that isolation and that. And the danger as well, kind of, of being in outer space. There's, you know, you got a song like a city on fire, which those lyrics were written, you know, as we were in the studio. And so, at that time, California was on fire with wildfires everywhere. You know, there was the Black Lives Matter movement was going full. And it was, it was a, it was a intense time in the United States. For numerous reasons. But yeah, there were protests in the street. I don't know. Luther was never, there was never really written political songs. There might be some, there might be some opinions woven into some of these stories. Over 20 year career, but we don't just never liked overt preaching, or political or social commentary. And in the songs, it's just not, it's not what I'm shooting for. That's no, that's not why I'm writing songs. But in situations, certain situations, I, you can't help but that stuff just kind of worked its way in. And so sitting on fire is not any kind of direct commentary on anything, but it does capture that feeling of, you're kind of surrounded by flames. The fire is creeping in slowly. Yeah. And like if you step outside of the spaceship. Yeah, it's gonna be rough out there. That kind of thing. It captures that it captures that feeling of that moment, I think. And so yeah, that kind of works in that whole idea as well. And then the cover art, which was, I don't know, it was, that was kind of a spur of the moment thing that we decided just because it had the synthesizer sounds on it. And it did have some of this darker tone. and got to know, that seemed to the record cover that we picked with the kind of sci fi cover, it seemed to match the feeling of the record. So we decided just to just dive in completely and run with that whole whole whole thing.
Thomas Mooney 44:18
Yeah, well, there's like that uneasiness. You know, a city built on a Tinder box bot is just, you know, obviously it's it's kind of just perfect for a that song and just kind of like that. easiness and that. The stress of this past year.
Ben Nichols 44:38
Yeah, stressful for sure. And yeah. Yeah. And it's just been intense. harrowing, yeah. All that. And yeah, I think this record reflects, you know, the times it was made in a little bit whether that was intense They're not I think that anxiety is kind of wrapped up in some of these songs.
Thomas Mooney 45:05
Yeah, the the anxiety. There you go. Yeah. Yeah, you guys returned with to the studio with Matt rosbank, who produced the last record? And what what is that I also in relationship to him? How does the How does it change as far as him being a producer, engineer, all that kind of stuff when it comes to obviously having all these precautions of the year? How does that change with him,
Ben Nichols 45:35
and that he made it rostering is a, he's an old friend of ours. And Central's recording service is literally like half a block away from our rehearsal space. And so, so we felt very at home. And marrowstone was really good at making friends, probably whoever he's working with, feel right at home. But since we were, we were right at home, we were literally at home. And, and then that made us feel great at home in the studio. So even with the kind of crazy times and crossings we had to take, it was still a very enjoyable kind of laid back recording environment. And that's very easy to work with. He's been doing this since he was a kid. I think he was 16 when he started working at Sun Studios. And then, yeah, he just learned as much as he could, ever since he was just kind of a natural. And I don't think he's recorded much synthesizers before. He doesn't do a lot of synthesizer records. But um, but he's such a natural that you wouldn't know it. He he was able to mix that stuff in and make it sound very correct. And the whole process was very, yeah. As crazy as the outside world was inside the studio. We were just fine. So it was it was
Thomas Mooney 47:08
Yeah, you know, you mentioned obviously, you know, this record being recorded at home essentially. Is it easier to like what what's what's your kind of preference? What is it easier to like, record in the same city that you're you're living in? Or is that destiny?
Ben Nichols 47:24
Yeah, record kind of. I think that can work sometimes. Maybe for some folks. And maybe at certain points in your career. Maybe earlier in your career. Yeah, there's you could get out into the world and can go different places and isolate in, you know, another town where you don't know anybody. And you can just kind of hunker down and make a record. I like that idea. But for us at this moment in our career, and this time in our lives. Just being at home, and you know, having the comforts of home while you're recording and the ease of you know, driving a few blocks to your house. And then back to the studio. You got everything right there at your fingertips. And there's, there's a certain I don't know, it just makes everything easier. So we've really enjoyed having Matt Ross being somebody of his caliber there and somebody like that to work with is that's that's important for us. Especially because Lucio can be from anywhere else. We're definitely a Memphis band from Arkansas originally. And I'll always be in our Kansan. But um, but Louisiana was a Memphis band, just the work we've done with folks like Jim Dickinson and the North Mississippi Allstars in working at ardent studios and other you know, kind of very famous places, famous studios. I don't know and, and having folks like Rick, Steph, and Jim speak, the saxophone player can make having musicians like that around that are willing to play with a band like us. That's that's tough to find. That's that doesn't happen just in every town, every city. So um, yeah, the Memphis is mainly sort of what it is. And the fact that we can, yeah, record there. Yeah, it just makes sense for us right now. Yeah.
Thomas Mooney 49:33
This episode of Newsline is brought to you by the blue light live here in Lubbock, Texas. Blue Light has undoubtedly been my home away from home over the years, and has played such a vital role not only for my development as a journalist, but obviously it's been one of the foundational pieces for a lot of your favorite songwriters and bands who have made it out of the Lubbock area over the years. And of course, as a music venue, they've played such a pivotal role for a lot of your favorite bands. Just in general, one of my favorite parts about blue light is just how versatile the place can truly be. I've seen it crowded and rowdy on a Saturday night for a rock and roll band. And I've seen it dead still on a Wednesday when a legendary singer songwriter rolls through town. What you should do is go over to blue light, Lubbock calm and check out all the new merge. They've added hats, t shirts, both short and long sleeve. They also have hoodies and koozies and just added some sweatshirts that are very much an homage to the college sweatshirt that john Belushi wore in Animal House. And then of course, maybe the crown jewel of their new merge is the varsity club style jacket and blue satin. I got one the other day. And yeah, it's just one of my favorite things I own now. And yeah, I don't know. I just love it anyway, you can check out all their new merge over at blue light, loving, calm, as always, I'll throw a link into the show notes for easy access. Okay, let's get back to the show. You know, the, I guess like it's one of those things where you know, certain bands, you can feel where they're from, there's that identity that is just an automatic kind of thing that you feel. I feel like you guys are very much that way. With Memphis when it when you think of y'all you think of that. A lot of blue collar grit, that Southern Gothic aspect, the you know, because even though Memphis is in Tennessee, I think like most people when they think of Tennessee, they think of more Nashville. But there's like this other element of like, I guess, with Memphis being, you know that river town or city?
Unknown Speaker 51:40
And it is,
Thomas Mooney 51:41
yeah, that rudeness around in from that area.
Ben Nichols 51:46
Yeah, there's a certain I mean, yeah, Nashville. Yeah, when you think Tennessee, folks think Nashville. But um, Memphis is kind of the other side of that coin. It's, it's not as rich as Nashville, there's more poverty. It's more. I don't know, it definitely has a more rundown kind of character to it. But it's, you know, it's also kind of the capital of the Delta, right there with northern Mississippi, and Eastern Arkansas, in southern Missouri. And it's just, it's right there. In which really was, you know, the, kind of the heart of where modern American music really, you know, came from it's a, it's kind of right at that intersection. And that's, you can still feel that I think, I don't know, the city. For all its flaws, it still has a very unique character and vibe that you can still kind of soak up when you go down there. So um, yeah, it's, there's the musicians in the studios and you know, the kind of concrete things that make it what it is, but there's also Yeah, some kind of weird Voodoo thing it's got that makes it unique.
Thomas Mooney 53:14
Yeah, like, it's not like a really hung around Memphis a lot or anything like that. But it feels like Memphis has more of that. I don't know. Like, it's easier maybe to, like creep into the past. You know, we're not like, I'm sure like, every, every major city deals with this, but like, it feels like you can find the history there. Still. the good and the bad. And the ugly. Were Yeah, some of the other cities like, you know, gentrification is just like, rampant.
Ben Nichols 53:46
Right? Yeah, that's not as, as big a problem in Memphis. And so ya know, that history. Might be tough to put a finger on, but it's, yeah, you're just breathing it in the air.
Thomas Mooney 53:59
Yeah, so now, I don't even know if necessarily you're a fan of this. But you're from Arkansas. As you mentioned. This season three of True Detective was set in Arkansas.
Ben Nichols 54:12
Oh, yeah, fair, though.
Thomas Mooney 54:13
Yeah. I'm sure did you did you watch?
Ben Nichols 54:17
I did. I did. I loved it. I was a big fan of season three. I like season two, everybody hated on. But there were things of season two that I really, I thought Colin Farrell did a great job. Here's his final scenes. At the end of that season. I thought were heartbreaking. Well, I didn't touching that. There was a lot in there. I liked but yeah, season three being in Arkansas. It was mahershala Holy moly. What, uh, he's one of my favorite actors. He's just, he can't stop. You know, watching him he's just and playing, you know, a character in three different time periods. An old man, you know, a young man and kind of a middle aged man. I just thought you did a great job. Yeah, I was. I was a fan. I'm a fan of all three seasons protected.
Thomas Mooney 55:06
Yeah, the thing that like I loved about three so much was that I guess like with not with the season one, they build up the the boogeyman, right like the right, the evil in this world. And with season three, you're expecting so much
Ben Nichols 55:28
of that. And right. The pulls the rug out from under you. Yeah.
Thomas Mooney 55:31
And I think that like that's the What is it? Like the what is it like Occam's razor of like, you know, usually like the simplest, most.
Ben Nichols 55:43
Right, right? Like, that's the simplest answer is Yeah. is usually the correct answer. And
Thomas Mooney 55:49
that mystery is still there. Like, it's it's more rooted in, in just reality. And like,
Ben Nichols 55:59
it really rang true. And, yeah, I thought they did a really good job with that. And then yeah, and then that final scene where it's him in Vietnam, and he just kind of turns back and looks at the camera before he walks into the jungle. I thought that was a really interesting way to, to cap everything off. So, so yeah. Yeah, that kind of storytelling. Another show that doesn't have anything to do with Arkansas. But um, I want to go on to Fargo. I've seen three out of the four seasons. Have you seen Fargo?
Thomas Mooney 56:36
That TV series one the first season about what
Ben Nichols 56:39
first season is good. The second season is excellent. It's a piece of art. The second season is it's hard to top, it has the same kind of storytelling, similar in some ways to the True Detective stuff. It's kind of more raw in its own way. But yeah, I'm a fan of I'm a fan of all that stuff. And you know, and then, you know, the films that my little brother Jeff makes. He's definitely got that kind of Southern vibe to his storytelling as well. And so, yeah, all that stuff is inspiration for me. Watching all that, those watching those kind of shows and films. Yeah, it just makes me want to write more songs.
Thomas Mooney 57:25
Yeah, well, in relationship to you, like you, brother, obviously, like your brother doing these films, where, you know, you have to like it's it's a different kind of writing, right? It's a different kind of storytelling, because it's in, if we're just going with timescale, it's a lot longer. And maybe a little bit more broad. D, I guess like with you, like, you know, writing songs is a little bit more of that vignette style that more these five stories. What are conversate? What are the conversations like between y'all as far as if you're talking about, like, the I'm sure you have about like, the the storytelling ways? And how like, yeah, you're kind of telling the same story, but also like, different stories?
Ben Nichols 58:17
Yeah. Yeah, I love these are some of my favorite conversations, Jeff, and just hear what he's working on, and how he's, you know, attacking certain problems in his stories that he's trying to tell. And then we're hearing his reactions to some of the songs and some of the stories that I'm telling in my songs. Those are really fun conversations to have. And yeah, I don't know, I've always thought you know, filmmaking is kind of, I don't know, at least right now, to a lot of people. You've got, you know, literature and novels. But then you've got directors, and filmmaking, and then somewhere underneath all that, you know, importance is rock and roll and music. But, um, but I don't know, I think there's something to be argued, trying to tell a story and a three minute song. That's just as engaging and just as deep. And just as I don't know, just as important as the story that gets told, you know, two hour long movie. I don't know, there's I think it's a different process. And it takes a different style of writing for sure. But I think they each have their own merits. And I don't think one's necessarily more important than the other or more artistic than the other. Like, just I've thought about this in general films, you know, you're tied down to their timeframe. You just press play on the movie. And then you watch it in the scenes change according to you know, how the director wants it to go and the story moves at a certain pace. But with a song, a song is something you listen to, you know, over and over and over again. And, and yeah, it might be the song, kind of lets your life be the movie. And that song is kind of your soundtrack. Going back to what kind of what we touched on at the beginning of the conversation? I don't know. And I think that there's something more personal, for sure. I think about songs in their relationships to the listeners, as opposed to films, and the viewers. A song as a song kind of gets inside of you in a way that films can't. And so, yeah, I don't know, um, a lot of talking with my brother and discussing stories. But um, and I would love to do more. Like I did the illustrations and animation for some of those lyric videos. And I'd like to try my hand at graphic novels one day, writing a longer format story. And so I enjoy talking to Jeff about that style of writing. But um, yeah, I think it's cool that we kind of each do our own thing.
Thomas Mooney 1:01:22
Yeah, like the, the song thing. I think, as far as, like, his stories and songs, and it's, I feel like there's almost like, a little bit more flexible. They're a little bit more flexible, because like you do, yeah, they returned to you, you know, at a constant pace, because you're just listening to music. And do you.
I don't know, like,
it's one of those things where, with songs, there's so many examples of songs where I've listened to it at, you know, 15, that 2025, and so on. And I get something totally different out of it. Now, you can do this with a book and like a movie, or a TV show, and all that kind of stuff, too. But maybe it's a bit more easy with a with a song.
Ben Nichols 1:02:10
It is because I think you live with a song more than you live with a book or a movie. You like, you might read a book, you know, two or three times in your life four or five times in your life, you might read a book every year of your life, but still a song, you might listen to that song, you know, hundreds of times, and, you know, really becomes kind of a part of you in a way that films and books have a tougher time doing.
Thomas Mooney 1:02:34
Yeah,
most definitely. I'm gonna leave you on this one right here, because it's gonna be obviously your Cormac McCarthy fan. You You did the EP, blood meridian. And clearly, I think I'm gonna, like just take that off the board, because I think that would be the obvious answer. But like, what is that next kind of? What? What do you think should be like the the core of McCarthy book that's turned into film next? And would you and your brother
Ben Nichols 1:03:07
man just got a lot of stuff on his plate right now that is gonna be really cool. I know. He wrote a screenplay, about the same William Morgan story that I got that inspired back in Ohio. So he's got an excellent screenplay that he wrote. And they're thinking about making that into a film. Which I would love to see the finished product of that. And then, I don't know I always thought, Well, I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't know what stage everything he's working on. Is it? I don't know, what
what's a for common knowledge and what's not? Yeah. But he's got a lot of cool stuff that he's working on right now.
One idea that we had before the sales really started getting going. I was kind of splitting my time between graphic novels, comic books, and rock'n'roll bands. The show ended up taking up all my time. But I had a story that was kind of loosely based on my granddad, the granddad from the song, the war, who's also in coffin nails. And who I kind of was thinking of is the character hitting the song, the match, which is also on the new record when you found me, but I'm this granddad kind of character. He died when I was 12. So that means Jeff was only like seven years old when granddad died. So we didn't know him very well at all. We only met him a couple of times. But the fact that he'd been an infantryman in World War Two, when they came back to the farm in the 40s and 50s, and I don't know he was the only one in the family that really drank and smoked cigarettes and that just he He was an intriguing character. And so I kind of worked on this comic book about not him necessarily, but drawing from his life as inspiration. And so we might, but then there was, I don't know, there were a whole lot of other folklore elements in their mythology elements. And they're kind of bringing all those things and putting them in the fields of Arkansas in the late 40s. With this drunk guy who just got home from World War Two, I called the comic book from the land of opportunity. And so I don't know, I would love it if we could kind of go back to that story and flesh it out a little bit and make something out of that. I know, just in case that exists in that world. So. But yeah, that might be a project that I would love it if we could tackle that project one day and actually make something out of it.
Thomas Mooney 1:05:59
Yeah, well, it sounds interesting as hell, so yeah. But yeah, it's been really great talking to you today. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation here. Yeah, me too.
Ben Nichols 1:06:11
I wish most enemies. I thought. Sometimes my brain just locks up. And I don't have anything interesting to say, but I feel like we can.
Thomas Mooney 1:06:24
Alright, that is it for this one. Thanks for listening. Thanks to Ben for taking some time to talk about this new record, which it is when you found me out this Friday, January 29. Check it out when it's released. Go stop by our presenting partners over at Desert door Hot damn coffee in the blue light live. Make a pit stop over at the Newsline merch store. Check out the Patreon all that stuff. And yeah, I'll see y'all next week.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai