139: Ward Davis

We're closing the week being joined by Ward Davis. The country singer-songwriter is releasing Black Cats and Crows tomorrow, Friday, November 20. These haunting undertones are a real driving force for the album. They mainly come in the brooding baritone in Davis' powerful, whiskey-soaked vocals and the midnight black vibrato of warbling guitars, but perhaps most of all, they come in Davis' raw and highly emotional piano playing. Often, that happens in the form of stark ballads like "Black Cats and Crows" and the closing drunken hymnal "Good and Drunk." Other times, it's used to help add texture and tone like in the Ray Scott cut "Papa and Mama." At his best, Davis offers hardened honky-tonk anthems like "Ain't Gonna Be Today" and "Get To Work Whiskey" in one hand and heartache storytellers like "Colorado," "Good to Say Goodbye," and the aforementioned "Good and Drunk."

During this interview, we talk about the "residual darkness" of Black Cats and Crows, writing with the likes of Cody Jinks and Tennessee Jet, adult conversations in country songs, working in and eventually leaving Nashville, how he's continued to progress and adapt as a songwriter and storyteller, why he likes The Weeknd, and the surreal nature of having a song cut by legends like Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard.

This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol. In addition, this episode is sponsored by The Blue Light Live and Hot Damn Coffee.

Interview Transcript

Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.

Thomas Mooney 0:01

everyone welcome to Newsline on music journalist Thomas Mooney. And this is Episode 139, where I'm joined by country singer songwriter Ward Davis. I caught up with Ward earlier this week to talk about his new album, black cats and crows, which is officially out tomorrow, Friday, November 20. As Ward says, he's been recording this record for a good long while a few years now. But with the way 2020 ended up, he was able to get it finished earlier this year. One of the things that really pushes this record and that word has spoken about before. And what we talked about during this interview is this concept of residual darkness, how one taps into the sadder darker moments of the past to write a song. A lot of these songs are about these down and out moments from the recent past, where Ward is definitely moved past them. But how you're able to tap into those moments, and write a song get that darkness that that sad sinking feeling, again, as we talked about, when you're far enough away from it, you're able to get so much valued perspective, it's kind of like carrying a lighter in your pocket. in the wrong hands, that residual darkness, it can just burn the whole house down. But if you handle it properly, it can serve, you know, just endless purposes. And in this case, Ward has been pretty solid at holding that lighter. We talked about some of the specifics in some of the songs, songs like black cats and crows and Colorado for instance, songwriting in general, I think one of the cooler things is when an experienced songwriter such as Ward talks about some of that trial and error that comes along with the craft, how you don't just wake up writing great songs, how it kind of takes patience and hard work and a little bit of luck and, and talent all mixed together to get to a spot where you're able to actually write great songs. Anyway, I won't spoil all that during this intro. Today's presenting sponsor is desert door Texas Soto. If you know anything about me, it's probably that I'm from the heart of West Texas and absolutely love everything about West Texas. And that's really why I love desert door so much. You may be asking yourself what exactly salto is, well, it's a premium spirit that's similar to a tequila or a Moscow. But for my money. It's a little bit more refined and smooth. There's a sweetness and faint hints of vanilla and citrus and it's also as versatile as your garden variety vodka. At its core desert door is authentically West Texas, they go out and harvest total plants from the wild and bring them back to their distillery over in driftwood, Texas. So next time you're at your local liquor store, get a bottle of desert door. For more info, check this episode's show notes. If this is your first time listening to new slang, go ahead and hit that subscribe button. Go check out our Patreon and our merch store. All the links are in the show notes for easy access. And yeah, let's just go ahead and get on into the interview here is Ward Davis. Let's just start off with the obvious. I mean, you have a record coming out the end of the week. Yeah, it's what I always find so amazing is you know, like that time, I guess like, between when you're finished recording the record and mixing it and all that kind of stuff. And now probably seems like forever.

Ward Davis 3:39

Yeah. And then finally,

Thomas Mooney 3:40

you get the moment.

Ward Davis 3:44

Yeah, for sure, man. And I started recording this thing about four years ago. So like, I thought I was done two years ago. And then, you know, there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. A lot of people, you know, doing things that I don't do, you know, the promotion and the and the, you know, the publicist and all that stuff, like, you know, I write songs, and I record songs and I play songs. People with varying views on that. Yeah, we just did. It took about four years and we finished recording it. Actually, they're just falling they're called threads that we recorded. Probably may end of May. So we've we've been on the hustle to get it done, but it's it's finally gone, man. And now all I got to do is make another one.

Thomas Mooney 4:40

Yeah, it's what I find so strange or not strange, but interesting about all that is like, you know, it's I guess all of that energy put into making the record. And yeah, by the time it's it's ready, you're you you've already been writing new songs, and you're They kind of already moved on in a way.

Ward Davis 5:02

Yeah, I'm sick of this. I'm sick of these songs. Already. Yeah.

Thomas Mooney 5:07

Well, this ties to a quote that I read in the press release that I wanted to touch on, because I feel like this is exactly what this what we're talking about here. And what you're talking about is like, I'll just read the quote, I had just come out of a dark time in my life, and there was this residual darkness in me. And so what I think what I've gotten so much out of that is, is that, you know, you are moved on from from that point, or you've moved on from the songs. And it doesn't mean that they're bad songs, or that you don't relate to them anymore, or anything like that. But I love like, the, the way, you've put them in perspective as far as like, you've moved on, but like, you have that residual darkness.

Ward Davis 5:55

Yeah, man. I'm like, Really? I don't know, I'm really big on. Um, you know, we're the human, the human factor, I guess. Like I don't, I don't think anybody is is really, you know, immune to just, you know, just having, you know, things not go the way they want, you know, and even, you know, we set into everything with great intentions, and then sometimes we don't, but, you know, does it, just sell them? does everything work out exactly what we want to, you know, we did a lot of our own holes, but, man, there's something something in the last five, six years changed in me where I just, like, I don't, I don't think it's like a terrible thing to be vulnerable. I don't think it's a terrible thing to I mean, you can go through, you can go through dark times, but then when you get through, and you can look back, and you can, you know, recognize them for what they are. I mean, it's all just, I mean, you learn from it, you know, if you don't, if it doesn't kill you, you learn from it, if you don't learn from it, and, you know, what's the point, but you know, I don't I like to think we go through everything for a reason. And it's, you know, it's easy for me to think that because I'll go through, you know, Music has always been my loan therapy and my outlet. So like I can, I can go through a really rough time in life and write a song about it go, Oh, well, I got something good came of that. But it's, it's really, you know, the, like black hats and crew. You know, I was, I wasn't in I wasn't in a bad place when I wrote it. But, you know, it's easy to go back in your mind to that bad place. And that that those hard times those dark times and then there if it wasn't for those, you know, there wouldn't be good times. Like if you don't know the difference, so yeah, I draw I draw a lot of the from from the dark times, you know, and but, but generally when when I write all this dark, depressing shit, it boils down to I'm so I'm sorry about bad words, sometimes they come out. But, you know, I draw a lot from that. But, you know, generally when I'm writing, I'm in a pretty good headspace, you know, so. Not always, but, um, yeah, I mean, it's just, there is that leftover and it's, it's, it's good to get it out. And it's good for to show it to people and because everybody goes through it, and it's good to let them say that they're not the only ones.

Thomas Mooney 8:39

Yeah, like, it's, to me what it would what it is, is like, obviously, obviously, like any kind of creative, artistic expression is, can be cathartic and can be therapeutic and all those kinds of things. Yeah, but also at the same time, what I, what I gather a lot from a lot of songwriters, who, when you're going back and and tapping into a bad place, a bad time, what's so great about what they're writing, in the present is, is that perspective, you when you get far enough away from something, typically you have that, that that perspective of understanding of like, what went wrong or like, yes, if you had fault in it, or you know, all of that kind of stuff. So it's, it's, it's interesting how a lot of songwriters, they, you know, you tap into those bad times, but then it's during something that's usually a, you know, a clear and clear headspace.

Ward Davis 9:43

Yeah, man. And it is. Two words that I use when people say, asked me about writing songs, the two words are perspective, and empathy. And I think those are those are the two most important parts of songwriting like, you know, you I can, I can only know personally what I go through myself, like, I can only know those feelings. But I can look at somebody who's going through someone or something similar, maybe not the exact same thing. And say, Man, I kind of know how that feels like, I know how that feels. And maybe they don't know exactly how I feel. But there is a, there's a middle there, that, that that translates to everybody you know, and if you can find that middle word, or it speaks to where you're speaking to yourself, but it's also speaking to other people. I think that's a really, really special area to get into when you're writing song.

Thomas Mooney 10:38

Yeah, I love I love empathy. I think like, that's like the one of those underrated or maybe one of those, like, things that we don't talk enough about, is that empathy, because, you know, it all ties into being vulnerable enough to get outside your own perspective and get out of your own. View your own views and your own thoughts. And, yeah, take it from someone else, you know, somebody else's shoes.

Ward Davis 11:11

And we, you know, like, I think, in general, like we all pretty much have the same emotions, I think, you know, anxiety and depression probably, you know, all be set on by different things in life, it all feels the same, you know? You know, we're like I said, we're humans, man, we we feel all these things together, even though like we, we get into these spots where we go, oh, nobody understands what I'm going through. Well, the reality is, everybody does, you know, I just everybody's going through something, you know, and I think that's important to remember. Yeah. Especially when you're writing songs.

Thomas Mooney 11:50

Yeah. Which, obviously, you know, a lot of these songs here. You, you, you've been writing with for a long time you've been writing for with a lot of great other songwriters, a lot of songwriters like Cody Jenks and Tennessee, Chet and you know, Josh Morningstar, and folks like that, who, you know, I think like Cody is definitely become like a champion of this new revival of this hard country that is really heartfelt, but also hard living in can be like, hard living and vulnerable at the same time. And it feels like a lot of you guys have all kind of like, been doing the same thing. And it's, it's one of those like, what is it like high tide? raises all ships?

Ward Davis 12:39

Yeah, for sure. Um, man, you know, like Cody pours out man, I live in Nashville for 15 years trying to, you know, write songs for other people to record. And so when I met, I started tour and you know, about five, six years ago, I got tired in Nashville and decided I was gonna start doing a little record now we're gonna start selling edit little shows and sports bars or whatever, you know, whatever I could get really just to make a living. And I met this guy, Cody, and he, I was watching a man, I just paid it, like, I paid attention to him. And I was I was a fan of, I was probably a bigger fan of him as like a person before I was like a big fan of his music even because I saw that, like, he was completely unapologetic about what he was doing, like the music he was making was the music that he felt and the music that he wasn't going to be, he wasn't trying to fit in, he was just trying to, like live in his own skin with what he was what he did. And you know, for a guy that had been in Nashville having publishers and co writers saying, Oh, we have to do it this way. And you know, we're not it's got to be, you know, three and a half minute song and up tempo positive or no, we're gonna do we can get the songs recorded and get them on the radio and blah, blah, blah. And like that, that, that thinking just never, never got into Cody's head because he just he never played that game. And I did. And so like when I met him when we started writing together, like one of the first things that I learned from Cody was like, man, the reel is where it's at, like, stop trying to, you know, stop trying and write this song so that everybody understands that if you write it so you'll understand it it'll it'll bleed over people will translate it and it'll it'll speak to them in a different way. And there's a song and this is like a perfect example of that. There's a song I record called Colorado that Cody and I wrote together that he actually released on album A couple of years ago called lifers. But there's a there's a line at my ex wife and I used to go to Colorado and vacation so that's solid came from and there's a line in it where, you know, we used to vacation in this town called marble, Colorado. It's this tiny, tiny town. Horrible. And you know, I spat the line. And I said, I look back to when we carved our names in marble on that asked about the cabin where we stayed. And Cody was like, Oh, yeah, I love that. I love that. And he wrote it down. And I said, Man, we got to change marble. And he said, why would we change marble? And I said, Man, nobody's gonna know what I'm talking about, like, sounds like I'm carving my name and a piece of marble. And he like, looked at me, straight face. And he said, Where did it happen? And I said, marble. And he said, Well, that is fucking marble. So that's what it is. And that's what it came. But that's like, I didn't you know, when you're when you're programmed to do it one way, and you're programmed to, like, try to make it everybody song as opposed to just making it yours like that. You go in that direction. And that's something I learned from him, man. It's just like, keep it real. Keep it keep it honest. People will know when your bullshit like they will. And so it's marble.

Thomas Mooney 15:59

Yeah, it's, it's one of those things where, obviously, like, I'm not a songwriter, so I do not. I can't necessarily, like, speak about how? Well I guess what I'm saying is like, there's not necessarily a wrong way to write a song. There's probably a lot better ways to write songs. But I can't necessarily think that there's like, a bad way to, to create. Yeah,

but,

um, I think we're you come into problems is when you try and win the ends justifying justify the means, you know, what I mean? As far as like, you talking about, oh, we have to do it this way. Because it is gonna like the the algorithms tell us to or the, the industry at large says like, this is the way it's been done. And instead of just being more genuine and true to, to what you're what you're thinking, what you're trying to get out.

Ward Davis 17:00

Yeah. You know, I can agree with that. I think songwriting process is it is, I think when it's done, right. It's a very personal, very introspective, very it's a very emotional thing, you know, and it's not like, when, when you try to, when you try to put it in a box, man, it's just like, that is that human thing, it just goes away. Like you start writing about things that you don't really know what you're writing about. And there's actually on this on this record, there are songs like that bullshit you like. Some of the songs I wrote a long time ago, but I wrote them with guys who had lived through things that I hadn't yet and they nurtured their process a little bit more than they nurtured mine, you know, I kind of went along with it, and I'd give them my two cents and whatnot. But the I don't think there's a wrong way to write a song. I think that i think there actually there is the wrong way to do it is when you do it to make money. And then when that's the only reason when you're writing songs with that in mind, like okay, Oh, I got this. I got to write a hit song today. It's like, stop stop doing it. That's not songwriting. That's manufacture manufacturing. That's an assembly line. Like, let it Let it be real, you know, like, I just don't picture Willie Nelson sitting around going now what kind of song Do I need to write so that people will buy Willie Nelson because that's just not how he thinks he writes Willie Nelson songs. I just music such it's such a weird thing, man, because it is commercial. And it's the same when you pour your heart out and it goes on to paper and then it goes on tape. And then people buy it. Everybody makes money and everybody gets this joy out of it. Um, but it is, man. It's a craft. It's a it's a it's an art form. You know, it's Yeah, you're the one that said I could ramble. So

Thomas Mooney 19:09

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All right,

let's get back to the interview. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, I think like what's funny is like, I don't know, like sometimes I get the image of whenever I hear something on the radio that I just go like what what is this? Sometimes I like envision the, you know, is it? They got like the Mad Libs out there and they're just like putting plugging in. Well, we need X amount of, you know, these buzz words and these buzz words and

Ward Davis 20:40

yeah, like crazy cliche machine. Yeah. The cliche thing, it's a man, there's a toddler to Tom the police cliches for a reason, like everybody understands. But yeah, and I think that a lot of that has to do with like, you know, the, the, the genre, you know, like, I'm not, I'm not a complete music snob like, dude, I was just driving down the road. And now let's pick my daughter's up. And we were listening to the weekend. Have you heard the weekend? If you're this guy?

Thomas Mooney 21:16

Yeah. Yeah, I am familiar with the weekend.

Ward Davis 21:20

He's awesome. I love it. And I'm

Thomas Mooney 21:21

actually a big fan, too. So

Ward Davis 21:24

man, I'm blinded by the light every time I get a chance. So I'm, I'm driving down the road. I actually wasn't Cody's a couple of three, four weeks ago, and I'm played it for him and, and Cody listened to it. He goes, he goes, you know, this doesn't piss me off. And I said, You know why? I said, because it's a pop record. And it's written and produced by pop guys who know what they're doing and who are taking the time to make well crafted pop records. They're not. It's good. It's good. But like, if you were doing the st. Like, that's pop music. Like that's, that's you're not going to go. You're not going to listen to the weekend, if you want to hear a song about a guy crying in a beer in a hockey talk like that country music. That's what we do. and country music. So like, I think that when you're like a great pop song can be a great pop song. Like, if there's a but then you go well, there's a lot of great pop songs on Country radio. And that's why for the problem starts. It's like, oh, okay, this isn't really good, but it's not good for what it's supposed to be, I guess is what I'm

Thomas Mooney 22:37

good at. You know, that's 100% agree, because I obviously I love I think I ever I think it's weird whenever you say Oh, I love all kinds of music because I think like most people do love all kinds of music. They can appreciate all kinds of music. But yeah, it is the where where I guess have a problem with it is is that Miss labeling or like being forced fed that as a as being told that this is authentic, quote unquote, authentic country music when it clearly isn't.

Unknown Speaker 23:12

Yeah.

Thomas Mooney 23:14

But I mean, we don't have to focus on on all of this right here. Because I mean, yeah. I want to talk more about like some of the songs on this record with you.

Okay, yeah, well, you know,

I think like people listen to or hopefully they listen to my podcast that because of the conversations on songs, I don't know. I wanted to talk to you about that about the the title track that you wrote with Cody and Tennessee jet. And I guess like where did that where did that like initially stemmed from? Where did that idea first pop up?

Ward Davis 23:49

Alright, so this is gonna be disappointing. But I'll tell you anyway, um, so I'm standing I'm in a little rock, Little Rock, Arkansas. Late last year. Me and TJ Tennessee. Joe, we're standing backstage. We'd opened open the show for Cody and Cody was on stage playing and we're back there just chit chatting. Cody's he's, he's a little superstitious. He's not too bad, but he is a little. But I said to TJ I said, Hey, man, how funny would it be if like a black cat ran right across the stage in front of Cody right now. Like all the way across, ran across? And he's like, Oh, yeah, be pretty funny. And we gave him he said, man. He said I felt that black half got kind of a bad rap, you know? And I was like, yeah, crews too, huh? And he's like, yeah, cruise and he said, Man that might be a solid black cat and crows. And we noodle around with it backstage for a few minutes and we text didn't really come up with just a few like conceptual thoughts on it. And a couple months later, I was out at Cody's and It was late. His kids were in bed. I mean, him and his wife were sitting up. I think he was drinking beer. And me and Rebecca were drinking whiskey. And we just started noodling on it you know, and we, me and Cody sat there and, you know, got drunk, wrote the song. Quarterback, I sat there and watched us and listened and, like, made mental notes so that we wouldn't forget what we were saying. But uh, you know, we wrote it on next day, he's got he's got a grand piano in his living room. And next morning, I got up started playing it on piano and we sent it to our manager and then it just kind of became a fight over it was going to get to record it first and I came out victorious. But yeah, we just it was a thing. I mean, he and I have such a weird are parallels are so funny, like, wait. Last year, we it's not we weren't like mad at each other. And when there wasn't any, any, any thing going on between us but we were both separately just kind of going through some stuff on our own, that we hadn't really talked to each other about. And then after we both pretty much came out of it at the same time. And then we talked to each other about it, and then we like, you know, kind of laughed about it not really laugh, but like I was going through this awful situation with my ex wife and my divorce and custody. And Cody was in the spot where he was you know, dealing with some things with that had to do with you know, man, he was the one I met Cody. He wasn't you know, he wasn't Cody Jenks now. He's Cody fucking Jenks. Now this guy's famous, you know, and that's a lot. That's a lot of pressure on a human being you know that, you know, one day you can go to the grocery store and the next you can't like it's it's hard. And it put him in a put his head a spot and my head was in a spot. And we came together and had all this darkness from the residual darkness from the year before we just dump it out on paper. And like avocados.

Thomas Mooney 27:12

Yeah, yeah, it's the I find the, like the I guess like the the stardom thing like, with with a lot of people, I guess with so interesting, because, you know, for all intents and purposes, like there's a part of you that that wants the critical acclaim the the fandom, right. But then like, yeah, it's also like, man, I do I do have some empathy for, especially like lead singers who, you know, I guess like I, what I'm going to is, you know, I've heard some people comment, like, you know, that if you're a band or something like that, you're only working 90 minutes a night or something like that. And it's like, No, dude, like, you're not Cody Jenks for 90 minutes. You're actually Cody Jenks? 24. Seven every time you walk out of the out of your house. Because like, you have to be that person. Because if someone comes up and as a fan, you know, you don't want to be an asshole.

Ward Davis 28:16

Yeah. I mean, you want to be an asshole.

Thomas Mooney 28:20

Yeah, that's a better way to put it. Yeah.

Ward Davis 28:21

Man, it's, it's, you know, I think the you know, when you moved to Nashville, and Wade and I mean, I was I was reared to think that there's one way to do it, there's one way to make it music, the only way you move in Nashville, you get a publishing deal, and you get a production deal, then you get a record deal. And you put a record out and then you cross fingers. And basically you put all of your faith in these other people, like you put all your talents and they sign these ridiculous record deals and all this bullshit. And they put you out and they send you to radio stations and had to kiss everybody's ass and you have to do what they tell you and you have to you know, you have to sell just just enough of your soul. That there's there's enough of it left so that you can keep going but man when you're you know, I got turned 41 years old last one, like there's I'm not going to know my days of going and getting a record deal downtown and being Kenny Chesney are over like that's not going to happen for me. So the way that we've had to do it has been it's I mean, it's it's grunt it's like grunt work like we've had to. and Cody would tell you the same thing, man. You load up in a you get in a van and you don't even know that it's going to be running when you get to the gig like you're you're going broke all the time. You're losing money on shows, you're building it slowly. So so very slowly that you can't even see the difference when you like, you go to a town and you play a show and there's 15 people there and then you go back six months later and there's 20 people there and then six months later There's 40, the growth is so slow, and it's so small because you're having to do it all on your own. That like fame. And success is like something that you don't even, you can't really prepare for because you don't know if it's ever gonna come. And then when it does come, it's like, how do you even deal with it? Because you're basically a blue collar worker, going to go into work every day. And then one day you wake up, and it's like, oh, gosh, oh, well, now I've got 15 people that that are going to do the work for me. But also, now they're all depending on me to make money so that I can keep them employed. And it's data, it's like, I've not had to taste as much of it as Cody, and, and did a lot of other friends on that. I've got a lot of famous friends, I guess. But most of them went through the Nashville, you know, Turnpike and they, they were prepared. They were reared, they were taught they were the man like, Cody, like, this guy's just been around, beating the highway down for 20 years like to wake up one day and you're famous. It's not. So it changes everything changes your whole life. Like you're not, not say that he wasn't ready for it, and that he hadn't handled it with just absolute grace and professionalism. But it messes with your mind, man. It's It's hard. It's Yeah, I can't wait. I want to be so I want to be so rich and famous. Way more problems than I do now.

Thomas Mooney 31:34

Yeah, it's it's both like, it's, it's not an overnight success by any stretch. So like, one day, you can wake up and it is like, it's like, it's totally different. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's one of those things where, you know, as a journalist, as somebody who's been, you know, adjacent to a lot of all of this of the music scene, I think, like, it opens your eyes to realize, you know, like, when the person who is just listening to the radio calls, someone to sell out. They don't know what they're talking about. Because like, it all goes to, you're talking about, like that pressure of all of a sudden, like, there's so many more livelihoods tied to you than that. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't, I guess like, I think that is such a loaded term for anyone. And this is obviously not even saying remotely that Cody's a sellout or nothing like that. But I guess like that goes back to this empathy of like, man, no one really is a sellout. You know, it, man. It's all like tied to especially when, like you said, like, when there's all these people's livelihoods are tied to you? Yeah. And

Ward Davis 32:54

I say like, I see it too. Like, um, you know, Cody used to do these, he used to do meet and greets he used to, I mean, every now and then he'll pop out of his boss and he'll go shake some hands. And you know, of course not lately, because nobody can but you know, on Facebook, like, oh, man, you know, Cody used to come out, shake his hands, and he's really appreciate it, blah, blah, blah. And I was always like, dude, there's 5000 he can't come shake 5000 hands like come on. Like, what's what is with What do you mean? He's changed? He can't, he can't, like people don't. People don't see the whole side of it. You see that one little speck of what they think it ought to be and what it should be. And it's not always like that. We're getting off on all kinds of things.

Thomas Mooney 33:45

Yeah, it's a loose Congress. Yeah.

Ward Davis 33:50

He sat me down days, and I'll talk about the record. But we I was at his house here weeks ago, and it was late we set up during Can you know, and he said, board. He's like, man, he like this record, you know, it has a good chance and might change your life. And he said, Are you ready for that? And I was like, fuck now I don't know where you and he's like, Yeah, Yeah, kinda He's like, but he's like, don't, you know, just don't let it fuck with you too bad. Like, it's just you're, you're doing your thing. You're doing it right. It's a good record. Just roll with it, man. it'll, it'll all just be ready because it could change and I'm like, dude, you can so but with that being said, Man, that guy. I've always been really, really proud of how he's handled all this and he's always been really generous to me about writing and just being a really good friend. You know, he got mad to jail one time so it's

Thomas Mooney 34:45

that's always like a key to a real friend right there.

Ward Davis 34:49

Oh, hey, David into the jail. Yeah. I got. I got popped for some weed in Kansas here about three years ago and after he cussed out the cops that arrested me walked to the courthouse and bailed me out before they could even like, I mean, I think I was in there 10 minutes. But that's pretty funny. Did they beat me?

Thomas Mooney 35:11

Well, that's good. I guess that's a sign of a true friend right

there. Yeah.

You know? Okay, so like, obviously, you mentioned how like the the way, black cats and crows was written in a very loose and organic kind of setting. Late night, you know, hanging out, just kind of not necessarily spur the moment, but in a lot of ways like that. How often does it does it go that route? That where it is very, just like, there's not really a lot of pressure to write something, but something ends up being born in that moment.

Ward Davis 35:46

Yeah, man. I'd say these days more often than not, you know, when you sit down and man, like, I think I've written three songs this year, maybe four, if I'm counting the one I started last night, but your man when you start, when you start trying to push something out, man, it's like, started big crude. It's like a fart, man, if you push too hard, You're shitting your pants. Like, that's just it. And then being in a room with somebody that like, you know, I don't have. There's a lot of my life that I've done that I'm ashamed of. There's a lot in my life that I've done, I'm very proud of, I can sit in a room with my friend. And with Cody, and I can talk about any of it with the same amount of, you know, there's, with the same amount of openness like this guy, he doesn't judge me. And those are the people that I work with, you know, I love my friend, Greg Jones. Same way, I mean, we'll sit down to write a song, we always write a song, sometimes we just, you know, smoke some pot and hang out and have a good conversation. But when you're in a room with somebody that can't be comfortable enough to be yourself into, you know, let them see under your skin like that's you, you're more open, you're more honest, you're more likely more apt to let things out that you wouldn't. And those are those moments when you share like a human conversation and a human thought you get them on the same wavelength, Your Honor, or vice versa. That's the man that's the best time to write songs that going down to you know, going down to Nashville and having a 1030. co write and then 230 co write and then go into work at Applebee's you weren't, you're not really, you're not really writing from your soul. It's just that I'm not a big appointment writer, I guess is what I'm getting to I'd rather just I'd rather sit down with somebody I enjoy working with and see if something happens, you know, because I'm not gonna, like, go back to that night that we wrote black cats and crows, man, if Cody wasn't in that mindset, that's all straight up, we wouldn't have been able to. But he was there and I was there and it worked out.

Thomas Mooney 38:08

Yeah, yeah, it I don't know. Like, it feels like, if you have appointments, again, like some, some people can, can thrive with that kind of structure. But I at least for me, I would think that like, it would be easy for me to begin like cutting corners or like settling for our stuff versus actually like going down the road of finding what that's what the song really needs.

Ward Davis 38:40

Yeah, how old are you? 3333 Yeah, you're not you know, you're no pup. Like, that's, I absolutely understand what you're saying. And I have done that 1000 times. Like, I mean, probably more just for you just want to get out of the get it done and get out of the room. But man, when you're I got a little older, up, up, I've had enough people walk up to me and tell me what one of my songs meant to them or what it made it what changed in their lives because of that song or whatever. He had to take it seriously. Like you're you're, you're fucking with people's hearts, like you're, you're, you're speaking you're speaking in a very unique way to as many people as you can it wants man and like phoning it in. Like, you just can't like it has to be. It has to be like the gut wrenching thing in the world to write a song like you really have to dig into yourself because I mean, if you don't, it means nothing. It means nothing to me, it means nothing to you. Like that's just how it's gonna work. So it would be like back in the day dude when I would go down to Nashville and I wouldn't do to co write today. Usually, you know, at least I was always at least one sometimes two, sometimes three. But man, you just you trying to whip in there you come in with a solid hook, you know, Hey, I got this great idea for a song. You know, let's write it about the same fucking thing that everybody else is writing songs about today within, you know, Amal, and that's what you do and there's just no soul in it. There's no you know, I'm not gonna go down a list of songs that I think are awful. But you can listen to the song and know that if somebody wrote it about themselves, or they wrote it about somebody they know, or they wrote it because they were going through something as opposed to, you know, crews you know, yeah. You know, okay, yeah, that's catchy. It sounds good, man. There's no heart in that. There's nothing. You have to go through anything, right? That's just candy. It's your candy. It's good. It's fun. But man saw as a songwriter like I take it way more seriously than that.

Thomas Mooney 40:59

Yeah, yeah. You know, one of the things I, I always, I guess, like, okay, I'll backtrack a little bit. Like I'm a big fan of like, 90s country, and I love like, everything from really like the mid 90s to before before that, and I think like one of the big things that I guess I noticed earlier this year, was that some point during the late 90s 2000s, like a lot of songs, like stop being about like, adults.

Ward Davis 41:44

I've got them doing Legos. That's the best I could do to keep them occupied. But yeah, anyway, yeah, it stopped being

Thomas Mooney 41:50

said again, song stop being like, catered towards adults and like, adult situations.

Ward Davis 41:55

Yeah. Grown Up music. Yeah, no, kid, man. Uh oh. When I was a kid, my dad used to get so tilled at me because I didn't know what firm feeling women was guitars doing good and firm feeling woman so I would say for feeted women. You know, I was a little kid. I didn't know. But there's something to be said about that. Those it was that was a grown up way of saying something that little kids didn't understand. And now it's just like, Oh, we got to make it to the kids understand. And, and I'll go a step further. My mother is a retired English teacher. And it burns my ass that like you know, even when I use bad grammar, it's for very articulate. It's, it's for alliteration, or for whatever purpose. That man if like, the, the English language is going to shoot and in commercial countries notice, but you know, it's just not. It's, it's like everything is dumbed down. So far, it's like so a baby can understand. It's like, no, that's not country music was here for like country, real people with real problems. And what happened like that's this was the outlet for those people when it's not there anymore.

Thomas Mooney 43:13

This episode is in part brought to you by the blue light live here in Lubbock, Texas, there is a way to help a support blue light, and B, get a sense of that normalcy by visiting blue light, loving, calm, clicking on the merge tab, and getting some koozies a vast array of T shirts and caps, and yes, even a blue light flag. While it is such a bummer that live music is still on hold right now. I'm telling you by getting some blue light live merge, we're gonna feel better. It just feels better wearing a T shirt and ballcap and helping support your favorite bar. Again, that's blue light. lubbock.com click on the merge tab. Get some merge. All right, back to the episode. Yeah, like yeah, like, a lot of these songs right there about adult situations. They're about, like, coming to terms with with becoming an adult or heart ache. Like and I mean, like real hard, like, not necessarily like, my girlfriend of the month has like, left me in and I'm, you know, I'm have a failing grade and, you know, SATs or something. You know what I mean? Like, it's real stuff we're like, about

Ward Davis 44:33

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, well, there's man one of my favorite songs of all time, song called rake, rake and ramblin man is a don Williams song song that Bob McNeil wrote, man, this is a song about a guy who had one nightstand and knock knock this girl up. This is a song about him. like finding a job and calming down you know, he didn't he wasn't ready for this. You know, I'm On the rake, you know I'm a rake and ramblin man for his eagle flies Look at me now and telling me the truth well look like a daddy Do you like this guy's going through like the most the hardest thing he's ever faced in his life. He's about to have a child that he wasn't ready for with some girl that was just a one night stand in, but he's getting a job and he's realizing that he's got a he's got to take care of business man. Can you imagine hearing a song about that on commercial Country radio right now? Like it just wouldn't happen. And like that those stories, those human stories, they've been forgotten the whole, the whole genre, the whole format has forgotten that these songs, this this is the place for the real, and it's just not real anymore. Like it's a fantasy. Like how much fireball can we actually drink?

Thomas Mooney 45:56

Yeah. Yeah.

Too much, probably. But yeah, it's, um, yeah, no, I think it's it. Again, like the, I guess, like songs on the radio used to be about divorce and about, like, you know, being a stepdad or like being, you know, I'm thinking like, just like Toby Keith, early Toby Keith stuff, right? Like, all that was about like, real life situations that are seen. Yeah. You know, one of the things that also I want that I feel like this ties into whether what you're doing on on this record that is kind of been, it's been lost in a lot of country music and, and that's obviously like, you're a piano player, you're, that's part of your

record repertoire is

part of the repertoire that you have as a musician, you're not necessarily just geared towards writing guitar, bass songs. What I guess like, for starters, like what, what drew you to piano and what's what's what is, I guess, like, drives you towards like, writing a song on a piano versus on guitar? Or like, Oh,

Ward Davis 47:21

well, man, most of the, you know, generally, you're right on ATAR, like, 90% of the time, I'm on the guitar. Um, I started playing piano when I was seven years old. My parents put me in piano lessons. I got kicked out when I was 10, or 11. Cuz I wouldn't read the music. I was just playing by ear. And I came into, you know, piano class one day and have a little steamer, those little tape, tape recorders, little flat things. little flat tape recorders with one speaker on them. Anyway, I took my tape recorder to my piano class and I played a Garth Brooks song from a teacher called wolves. That wasn't it was on the no fences record. I'm familiar. Yeah. And I've learned course it's a guitar song on the record. But I learned how to play that note for note, I play it playing it on piano for fun. After I got done. She said told me to call my mom. She's like, call your mom. She's like, I can't teach you anything. And I was like, No, no, she's like, no, she's like, I can't play by ear. She said you can't read music. So what are we doing? So I started you know, I started learning how to play the stuff that I wanted to play and it was all you know, country music that was that was really cool about like, he paid me $20 to learn a song. He paid me $20 to Chariots of Fire one time the theme song Chariots of Fire. But, you know, I started when I was about 14, I entered the the drew county fair talent show and play piano and saying it was the first time I'd ever always played piano every year, not always one. But this year, I decided I was going to sing too. And so I played piano and saying, and there was this kid named Kent early in play torn saying you're gonna beat me. And so, that night, I went home and started learning how to learn how to play guitar because I was I wasn't going to be beaten. And so the next you played I think I played on the other hand, the song I'm at the county fair the next year and one but, you know, as far as like riding man, I just I can't hear melodies and I don't necessarily hear an instrument on it. I just kind of work work through most of it in my head. But what I did get from the piano that I did learn was A little bit of the theory and the movements and you know, I can hear in my head, like if I'm going from one chord to another without having to actually hear it, hear myself play it. So a lot of times, like even black cats and crows, like, you know, we wrote that on guitars and then I took it in the other room and put it to piano. So I don't know if it's like a, I think it's an afterthought, like after I'm done with the song. Oh, hey, that's a piano song. That's not a guitar song. And that's, that's just kind of how I go about it when I when I record them.

Thomas Mooney 50:30

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.

Ward Davis 50:33

But a lot of times, I don't know, that's what I got to produce, I get really great producer who points these things out to me sometimes. I don't know.

Thomas Mooney 50:40

Yeah, cuz I didn't know if like, maybe, you know, it was one of those things where I've seen a lot of some other songwriters who, if they're, they, if they know, a few instruments, if they get, like, stuck on a song, though, try, like, jump on the, on another hit on the other instrument to see if it? I guess, like, if you're able to look at it from another perspective, or another way, if it is, like, maybe the key that opens the door or something.

Ward Davis 51:08

Yeah, I mean, you know, stuff like that does help. You know, just just to get the vibe. And, you know, just moving around, who knows what's gonna spark your brain or send it in another direction, you know, it's like,

I get on, I get on online all the time and look for guitars that I really, really, really need. Because I feel like, you know, a different guitar or bring out a different feel a different melody, a different whatever. But it's, you know, I don't know if there's any good way to gauge it or to even be able to tell, I think it's just something that kind of happens or doesn't.

Thomas Mooney 51:50

Yeah, that's, uh, yeah, I don't know. It's, it's also, it's one of those things where we have these conversations about it all, but like, also, at the end of the day, like, none of us really know, where it comes from, you know?

Ward Davis 52:04

Yeah. I like think that it's, yeah, you know, I think what I do is, it's a talent, but it's also a skill, you know, like, you know, I think growing up and, you know, when I was when I was a kid, like, obviously, I figured out pretty quick that I had a, I had a talent for music, like, I was able to understood it, more or better than most of the kids my age and around me. But also, man, like, You got it, you got to think I've written 1000s of songs, and, you know, 1000s of them are terrible, like I had to, I had to really learn how to think like a songwriter like, you know, as you know, sometimes it's, it has to do with me, you know, when I'm playing the piano, like, I'll move my hands in a direction and it'll make me think something, you know, it'll, it'll change the melody in such a way, that's just different enough and stuff like that. But, you know, I had to, I had to learn, like, really learn how to write songs. And but I learned how to do that. But I haven't great songwriters are on me all the time. And be just, you know, I love great songs, like we were talking about earlier, just like songs about life, and you study them and you listen to them, and you go, Oh, well, I see why that's easy to sing. It's because they did this and this and this. So there is a little calculation to that. So it's not all just inspired, but it's a lot inspired and a lot, you know, critical thinking.

Thomas Mooney 53:40

Yeah, yeah, the, you know, I'll to to apply that for myself. As far as like being a journalist, you know, a lot of young writers will ask me, yeah, like, how do you what, what are some things I need to do to become a better journalist kind of stuff. And I always tell him, like, you need to just start writing because you, even if you're not publishing it, if you just have like a WordPress or something to write, because it takes those hours. And you know, you're going to write the simple fact is, like, you're going to write some awful stuff, some stuff that you're not even you never wrote, you hopefully, you don't ever publish or anything like that. But what it is, is like you want to get to the point where your skills are good enough to once you do have something to write that you're able to apply it and you're able to do that. Yeah,

Ward Davis 54:35

yeah. No, totally man. And that's that's how it is like, and then there are laws like what I was talking about earlier, too, is like that responsibility to get it right. You know, once you you know, we start you start down a path with a song and you go, oh, man, this is not this is not gonna be one of my terrible songs. Like, it's probably the same with what you do like Oh shit, this is really coming together. That's when you buckle down and you're like, all right now I have to make this as the best that I possibly can. Because at the end of the day, you don't really know if it's gonna be a huge piece of shit or not, but you do your best like you do your best and once you get it to where it's the best and you know, you know shits thinks cream rises, or shits it Yeah, sure. Thanks green Robin. Yeah. That's that's what you Yeah. But you got to keep going. You got to make every one of them the best that you can. You know, even the bad ones is to accept them when they're bad sometimes. Yeah.

Thomas Mooney 55:37

What kind of rider are you? Are you like a legal pad by paper?

Ward Davis 55:43

Damn paper legal pad.

Thomas Mooney 55:47

Well, I

Ward Davis 55:48

Okay, go ahead. Yeah. Well, I went through, I went through a period where I use the iPad, I was writing on an iPad all the time. And during that period, I wrote a song called on Fairweather friend that Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard ended up recording. And I've kicked myself in the ass 10,000 times, because I don't have a piece of paper. I did not have a piece of paper with me the day that I wrote that. And I would have loved to have had that piece of paper to, you know, to stick in a folder for my kids to find 30 years from now, but I don't so after that, I went right back to paper. So

Thomas Mooney 56:26

yeah, I mean, that's how obviously so much of stuff is online these days, but whenever I'm stuck on something, I always go to like a pen and paper because I think like there's something physical about it too. And I was actually gonna bring up that song on feather or unfair weather friend. What was like the I guess, like, what was like, how did the news get broke to you? I guess that that William Merle. We're gonna be putting that on that jingle

Ward Davis 56:56

man. I was. There's a story to this song. I wrote it with my friend Marla cannon. Marla is a she's a great hit songwriter. She wrote one of my favorite country songs ever. It's called the full Celine Womack song. Yeah, yeah. She wrote that. She wrote like 10 rounds with Jose Queiroz, you've ever heard Pat, she's had a really good career, but a lot of hit songs. But anyway, she's you know, I'm friends with her and her family. Her dad is Willie, Nelson's producer. His name is buddy cannon. So I'm writing with Marlon one day and she says, Hey, listen, so daddy is producing this new Willie record. And it's, it's gonna be all do it with girls with female artists. And it's gonna be cold to all the girls I've loved before and he's doing a duet with. They need. They need one for him and Sheryl Crow. That's what she said. And I said, Okay, and I said, Well, you know, she said, It was a beautiful autumn day. We're sitting on her patio and leaves blowing around. She said, we should write a song called fairweather friends. And I was like, Who knows? I'm contrary I was like, Oh, that's right. Well, hold on fairweather friends. And so that's we wrote it, you know, we wrote it for Willie and Sheryl Crow. So she, she sent it to her dad, who, at that day, particular day he was in the studio with Kenny Chesney, nice Kenny Chesney, his producer as well. So, he plays it for Kenny and Kenny loves it. And Kenny says, Hey, I want to put this on the next record. We've already got everything sealed up for this one but I'd love to put it on my next one if you guys wouldn't mind holding it for me of course me and MARLAR you know, we're dancing you know? We're excited like shit yeah, Kenny Chesney? man that's money we want some money. So we're really excited we'll yada yada yada Tom goes on Kenny changes his mind doesn't record it. By the time he doesn't record it and Willie's already done his due out with Sheryl Crow and we're just shit out a lot. So that was a product three or four years later, I heard the rumor mill that William Merle were going back in the studio. So I called more or less like hey, we are taking another running dad with a song you know if you know we know he loves it. So you know maybe Willie like it and then maybe Merle Merle likes it. So she sent it to him and he sent it to Willie Willie loved it. And I think they went to they went down to Austin. They flew down to Austin, the band and everybody on on actually on my birthday on my 35th birthday. So November 9 of what just turned 41 I don't know what year was 2014 they fly down and they're cutting on the cans. So I knew that Willie liked it. I didn't know Anything I didn't I hadn't heard from, or anything about what he thought of it. So we are basically I spent that day just trying to stay busy cleaning house, just pedaling in the yard, doing whatever I could. And normally, they book sessions at 10am in it, too. And then it's six. And I figured Willie was probably going to do to a 10 and a two, and then they weren't going to do anything after that. So probably about 530. That afternoon, I hadn't really heard anything. And so I was just like, I will be recording the Morris and maybe they'll record it tomorrow. And so I went back to piddling around, and then I went, looked at my phone, and I had three texts. My friend Shannon, I don't know what her last name is. Right now. She just got remarried. But she's buddy's assistant. Her name is Shannon Finnegan, but she texted me. And she said, Ward, they are charting your song. And then the second one said will work, they are tracking your song. And then the third one was a video. And she was sitting on the couch in the control room, and you could hear Willie coming through the speakers. He was putting his vocal on it, and I could hear Willie Nelson singing my song. And I just, I just cried for three days. You know, I cried and then a call, call my buddies back home and told him that I finally made it. And long story short, man, that song. It happened. It's still it's still really weird. even imagine it like I can't. I mean, Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard recorded a song that I wrote, like, I can't. That doesn't make sense to me.

Thomas Mooney 1:01:41

To me, like it's one of those things where, you know, insert like basically even like the biggest of stars, cut my song or cut a song I wrote. That obviously means something. But Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard, that it's way more surreal has to be way more surreal of a situation of going like, holy shit, you know,

Ward Davis 1:02:06

or you can't. Yeah, I mean, like, you can't set that goal. Like who in their right mind would be like, you know what? I'm gonna get Willie Nelson. No, you're not nobody can do that. You can't. If you set that goal, you're gonna get disappointed. So it never even crossed. I mean, up until the moment I got that text. I was like, This is not like, come on board. This. There's no way like this. Just No, no, no, but sure shit happened.

Thomas Mooney 1:02:40

Yeah, yeah, that's a that's amazing. Yeah,

Ward Davis 1:02:43

it's it, man, it changed my life. And the one thing I did do is when that happened, I kind of took it as a sign that maybe Nashville wouldn't gonna be good to me. And then I needed to, you know, realize the kind of writing that I did and the kind of songs we're gonna deal the people that were, you know, 25 year old a&r reps at Warner Brothers. And I knew that that, you know, having that would give me a little bit of credibility, it would open some doors for me. And man, I used it as as much as I could just to be, as opposed to sitting down and saying, well, I did it. You know, I finally got something and now, I was like, No, this is need to use this as a launching pad to do what you what you want to do. It man, it opened up just every every single door since and I can tell you. Absolutely.

Thomas Mooney 1:03:42

Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, I mean, again, it's probably easy to just, you know, sit back and go, Okay, well, this is the top of the mountain but yeah, using it as a launch pad using it as a, as a place to, to, to get further along. That's the key to it all.

Ward Davis 1:04:00

Yeah. And and, you know, because of that, like, I had always heard that Willie Nelson will sing on your record, if you ask him. And I was like, Well, shit, here's my chance to ask him and feel. If I can get him to come sing on a record, that's gonna, I can't hurt. So I asked him and he said, Sure. Yeah, that song just gave me so much. It's weird to think about.

Thomas Mooney 1:04:33

Yeah, no, I hear you. It's Yeah, you know, and I really love this new record that you're putting out. I think it's a I think this year has been such a weird year. And, you know, it's been one of those things where it's been, if there's a silver lining in it, there's been a lot of great music that's been coming out.

Ward Davis 1:04:53

And yeah, man, it's it's you really, you find out Who your fans are I'll tell you that much man, I've you know, everything shut down for us you know, middle of March. And you know, we pretty much every a lot of people had to just throw their hands in the air. But man, I've had a, I got a really great management team. I got really smart guys know more about this than me. And you know, they said, okay, you know, we're gonna have to wait, let's double hustle. Now we got to get this record ready. And so you know, they pushed me and you know, found ways to make money to keep our heads above water up until now. Now here we are. Four days away, coming out Jesus.

Thomas Mooney 1:05:46

Yeah, well, I mean, like I said, it's, I really love. I love a lot of the mood and the tones of this record. And

I think the lady does tie so well with a lot of the the songwriting content again, going back to that, the dark residuals of the record, and yeah, it's been really great talking with you.

Ward Davis 1:06:10

Yeah, same here, man. I appreciate you prefer to read. Yeah, and I'm ready for this and get out.

Thomas Mooney 1:06:27

Okay, that is it. For this one. Be sure to check out black cats and Crows by Ward Davis out tomorrow, November the 20th. Be sure to stop by our presenting partners over at Desert door. Hot damn coffee and the blue light live. And yeah, I'll see y'all next week for more new slang

Transcribed by https://otter.ai