134: Cam
On Episode 134, I'm joined by singer-songwriter Cam, who released the exceptional, genre-transcending The Otherside this past Friday (Oct 30). Cam has long been one of my favorite artists due to her refreshing pop sensibilities, lyrical (and vocal) nuance, and the emotional weight that much of her songwriting catalog carries. The Otherside sees Cam further blossom as a storyteller, performer, and country pop star. Strong anthemic singles like the love-drunk synth swaying "Till There's Nothing Left," the bubbly feelgood "Classic," and soaring instant classic "Diane" reel even the most cavalier of listeners. They're dynamic earworms that highlight different strengths within the Cam toolbox. Still, the backbone of The Otherside is the collection of keen ballads ("Happier For You," "Forgetting You"), heartwarmers such as "Like A Movie", and the reassurances and redemption found in the likes of "Changes" and "Girl Like Me."
During this interview, we talk about writing with the likes of Lori McKenna, Hillary Lindsey, Liz Rose, Sam Smith, and Tim Bergling (Avicii), creating mood boards, navigating Nashville and the music industry, the Michael Jordan documentary The Last Dance, and of course, the ins and outs of her wonderful new album, The Otherside.
This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol. In addition, this episode is sponsored by The Blue Light Live and Hot Damn Coffee.
Interview Transcript
Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.
Thomas Mooney 0:01
Everyone, Welcome to New slang. I'm your host music journalist Thomas Mooney. This is Episode 134, where I'm joined by singer songwriter cam. I know some folks who subscribe to new slang, are in it more for the Americana leaning interviews. So they think that maybe cam isn't their cup of coffee, but I highly encourage you to give her a listen. This album of hers the other side, it's one of my favorites of the year and I'm talking like top 10 range. She released it this past Friday, October 30. So definitely check it out. This episode with cam has also been one of my favorites as well. This interview is about an hour long, but I could have easily gone just like full Joe Rogan and and done about three or four hours with her at any rate, I think we do cover a lot in the hour. Again, her new album, the other side, one of my favorites of the year, and specifically the song girl like me, which closes the album. That's one of my favorite songs of the year. I know cam has spoken about how the song came after watching the documentary surviving our Kelly. And it's heavily influenced and inspired by the struggles of being a woman in the music industry. All those double standards and trust issues having something that you love become warped and tainted by just you know, horrible experiences and bad faith and bad people. And while I can't necessarily speak to any of those issues, from personal experience, a larger part of that song is about forgiveness, specifically self forgiveness, and not becoming jaded, not letting others take away what you love. And I think that is just incredibly
relatable.
And while there is a very tragic and heartbreaking element to the song, the perspective where cam is coming from is very, very beautiful. And I just think it's an amazing song written by her and Natalie hemby. That's kind of what this album feels like to me to new perspectives coming from a new perspective. Maybe that's wisdom from time passing by, or new experiences, just the maturation process. Maybe it comes when you're just far enough from an event where you're just clear headed enough and balanced. You heard in songs like redwood tree, and changes and of course, girl like me, or of course in a song like happier for you or what goodbye means. It's holding out for hope holding out for people to change their mind, maybe for circumstances to change. But even there, I think that forcing yourself to address the situation is necessary. Maybe you're in denial, but I don't know. I think that sometimes that's the the first step to getting to a place where you're better. There's a lot of nuance in the lyricism and storytelling, her perspective has a lot of depth and weight to it. listening to these songs really feel like having a conversation with cam. Today's presenting sponsor is desert door, Texas SoTL. If you know anything about me, it's probably that I'm from the heart of West Texas and absolutely love everything about West Texas. And that's really why I love desert door so much. You may be asking yourself what exactly SoTL is, well, it's a premium spirit that's similar to a tequila or a Moscow, but for my money. It's a little bit more refined and smooth. There's a sweetness and faint hints of vanilla and citrus and it's also as versatile as your garden variety vodka. At its core desert door is authentically West Texas, they go out and harvest Soto plants from the wild and bring them back to their distillery over in driftwood, Texas. So next time you're at your local liquor store, get a bottle of desert door. For more info check this episode's show notes. Rolling in from the hills of Eastern Tennessee is hot damn coffee, a Down Home company that rose single origin high quality coffees from around the world. I am proud to be working with the fine hard working folks over at Hot damn coffee. Their year round roast come from certified farms in Nicaragua, Ethiopia and Tanzania. Od m coffee sent me over some samples the other day and they've just been making each morning that much better. As a writer, there's nothing quite like taking a coffee break and having that anticipation of that first sip of a robust, fragrant and strong but smooth cup of coffee somehow that first sip kind of just shakes all the frustration out of you, you come back energized and more focused on the task at hand. Check out the hot damn website at Hot damn dot coffee. Note that that's at DOT coffee and not.com. There you can find more info on the variety of different coffees they offer who they are and learn how to brew the best damn coffee. While they're head on over to the hot damn coffee club. Their subscription club gives you preferred pricing first access to new roasts and delivers coffee to your door every month. Now this is important new slang listeners can get 20% off their first month subscription by entering slang in all caps in the coupon code box during checkout. I'll Of course throw all the info and links into the show notes. But again, that's hot day. dot coffee, and slang in all caps for 20% off your order, start your hot damn subscription today. If this is your first time listening to new slang, I strongly suggest hitting that subscribe link. Okay, I think that's about it for the intro, let's just get on to the interview here is can you have this new album coming out in just about a month now? And obviously, it's been just about five years since the last album. I'm assuming that like, you know, you, initially you were wanting this, this, this record to be out sooner than this. And we don't have to necessarily get into all that, but I'm assuming you go you kind of go through all those different phases of like frustration to, you know, is this ever gonna come out to kind of embracing like, this is meant for now? What is I guess, like been that process on? on that side of things for you as far as like, it's finally arrived?
Cam 6:04
Yeah, I mean, Okay, can I ask how old you are?
Thomas Mooney 6:07
Yeah, I'm 33.
Cam 6:09
Yeah, so you're, we're in the same boat here. Like, I think I describe it as, from what I can tell from what I've lived so far, your 20s are also just like, oh, hurry up, like, I want my life to be here right now. And that's kind of, you know, how I felt about business too, and putting out records and, like, I want it all, and I want to right now, and I'm just gonna, it's gonna happen and bulldoze and whatever. And I think then finally, you start to like, oh, things happen at the world's pace, just at your pace, for better, for worse, and just so much goes into it. And I think, you know, just starting into my 30s, and getting married and having a baby and just, you start to just, I feel like, yeah, I've gone through exactly that process of being frustrated. And then sort of realizing that have the extra time helps. Helps me, you know, like, it helps me be better, it helps the project fall in place, it opens up doors for more things to happen. And I think you just start to realize how to, you know, dance with it a little bit more than enjoy it, because it's just, it's going to be the journey it's going to be. And obviously, I'm in a much better space now. You know, and, and probably part of that is like, because now the album's coming out, you know, in a month. I'm like, Okay, I see the light at the end of the tunnel. But, you know, kind of life has those arcs. And maybe not for everybody, but just because I'm a songwriter, or this is how my family grew up, like around the dinner table, you try to tell the best story about your day, you know, and so I just think of things in story arcs. And I'm hitting the, the moral lesson of this story arc, and so it's like, oh, I see what this chapter was for, you know, and I've made it so I think it's, it feels better, you know, right now at least,
Thomas Mooney 8:27
yeah. To me, that makes a lot of sense. Because, obviously, just comparison, comparing this to like writing your songs, like, sometimes it's not until later that you fully Are you you better understand, like the story of that song. You know, a lot of times like that can happen later, where you go, Oh, you know, what, actually, I was processing this, and it makes a lot more sense. And in I guess, like, in real time as far as like your own story. You know, it's it's your processing that you're processing the, you know, oh, you know, this little setback is actually not a setback. It's just like a sidestep.
Cam 9:08
Yeah, and I think also, like songs for me are definitely an effort or not effort, but it's just like an opening of the subconscious unconscious and trying to figure out, you know, bring things that are need healing to awareness. And so I'll sit in like a song, a songwriting session, and I'll say lyrics that like at the time, it's like, oh, that just feels right in my gut. But I haven't process process that deeply. What it really means for me, like I'm like, Oh, this is a story I'm telling. And I kind of know, some of this relates to my life, but I'm also just telling the story, and then later on it like, Oh, that's what I was saying to myself, but I think because it's coming from a place of like, deep down. It's in there, but like Really on a conscious level, you don't fully get it yet, you know, so I think, and then also just maybe the flip side of that is like when you go too far as a storyteller, like, you know, they say eyewitnesses are really unreliable, because every time you access a memory, you like, tweak it. Think it's kind of like a little bit like that with me and storytelling, like, it is easier. Because I guess truth is kind of relative, like, every time you're looking back, and like, Oh, this is what it means. No, nevermind, this is what, like, the other day I started realizing, like burning house. I've been telling the story about like, what it's about, and, you know, the guy that I dated, and was really important to me, and then I, you know, didn't handle the breakup well, and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, Oh, you know, I just felt guilty. And I went in this burning house and wouldn't let him die alone, you know, so we died together. And now I'm just like, Oh, my God, I felt so guilty about someone else. having their feelings hurt. I like had a dream myself dying over it was like, wow, that's kind of
that's pretty fucked up.
Now, there's this whole new layer of like, Why do I feel so responsible? Yeah, so I think, I guess that's just life, you know, layer and layer.
Thomas Mooney 11:18
Right? Well, you know, that's, you, you mentioned like, the, the, the eyewitnesses. Like they, you know, they talk about, like, I guess with, when you met remember something, it's like you, you're remembering the last time you remembered versus like, remembering it that initial time. And that's where like, all those little tweaks come from? And like, you know, obviously, also, when you're, you're telling the story to someone else, you almost always want to make it a little bit cooler than it was a little bit more dramatic than it was because maybe you feel that you don't, that it's not, it's not going to live up to as good of a story as you initially thought. As far as like, Yeah,
Cam 12:01
well, also, I get this kick out of, like, I realized this because I do these shows, and I started kind of around this living room tour of like, doing really candid banter, in between songs, and not even like sensationalizing a story. Because like, you know, how sometimes the banter between songs people are like, I guess all I've seen is people just be like, Oh, you're doing tonight. Like, and like this for all the lovers who've had their hearts broke like that kind of, you know, one liner? Yeah, you feel this. And then I, for some reason, like, I just was in the space, when this tour started out, just like, fuck it, like I'm telling exactly how I feel, and people can get it or not get it. And I think it was, for whatever reason, the people that dig my music and come to these things, we all were like, on the same page, and it was so fun. And now it's like, probably my favorite part of the show, to be honest, just like, spontaneously tell truth, and just be so open. And it's just like, Oh, yeah, that story like that happened. And it's something to be honest, you can't as an artist, you know, they train you to like how to speak to press and stuff. And like, people also with articles and social media, like things get taken out of context. And also just like, like we're saying context, and framing is like, Who are you talking to that listening to the story? Where that where are they at in their awareness and learning and when you're in the room, live with people, and you're connecting over music? It's just so much easier though, it's felt so bad for the chicks. Like when they made that comment, right and gotten drugs so hard, because it's like, whether or not you agree with their politics like also like, and they were just at a show and they just said it offhand. Like I can find something that you said like probably an hour ago that you probably don't even remember saying and take it out of context and be like this is so anyway, there's something super freeing about telling all those stories at the shows and it's so fun because I think it gives because normally I write all the songs and have like a really personal reason and so then when you listen to the song you're getting to hear like I don't know you're coming in it from a different angle. So
Thomas Mooney 14:43
yeah, what you know two things on that one I think what like what you're kind of saying there is in this industry as far as like I hate to use the word coach but coach the the phoning it in on like everyone's, as far as journalists are Just kind of like playing that game of like just kind of the right thing to say kind of thing and, or just like taking quotes from press releases and all that kind of stuff. What you're saying is like in these live shows like that kind of live setting, you're like scraping away all those filters that can warp and manipulate and change what you're saying. And then too, it feels like you know, you're you're playing songs during the show. And for the most part, like that kind of stays the same. But like that banter in that stage, the the, I guess, like the talk between you and an audience, that's the things that can change and can kind of maybe feel fresh every time.
Cam 15:43
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, five years, I've definitely had to do new arrangements for all these songs, you know, which is incredible. Like to tour, you know, extensively internationally. Definitely gets your chops up, and really fun creatively to come up with new ways to do all these songs. I'm so excited to play the new ones, obviously, because it'll be such a fun, new release for me. But yeah, the banter is like another level of like, yeah, you can change the arrangements of the songs, but also like right now. How are you feeling? And like what's going on in the world that everybody kind of is feeling to? And you want to talk about how that relates to you? How are you? How does that make you feel, or just like something new you learned, that you can share with people, and when you're having a real time conversation, just like when you're over the dinner table? If it doesn't resonate with people, you move on, you know, and you start talking about something else, instead of just like,
I don't know, there's something it's just,
I've never, I've done a lot of things in my life. And I haven't found anything as spectacular as feeling in the moment. So connected to everyone in a space like that. Like, it's just one of the best feelings.
Thomas Mooney 17:01
Yeah. Well, I want to go back to your when you're talking about songwriting, and kind of tapping into that free conscious space. And is that something that like you've had to learn to do over time? Or is that something that just has always kind of come natural?
Cam 17:20
That's always come to me, I think that's, like, I loved poetry as a kid, my parents would have us read poetry at the dinner table. And like, I just loved it. Like, I love digging deeper. Like, um, I think that's just part of how I work specifically. Like, that's why I was on a path to do psychology research, like trying to just figure out what's, what's moving me and what's moving the world. And why. Like, and I got to figure it out, because we're all gonna die. Like, get into the deep dark, like, I have to know like, what's the real, like, there's this layer that's conditioning. And then there's this layer that's taught, and then you keep getting down to the core and core. And where's that, like, rock hard truth at the bottom of it, whatever that quest is, for understanding, I think it's like tied in to how like when I do songwriting, like I'm not doing, I guess, also, I should just say, like, I didn't grow up being like, I should be a famous country singer. Like that didn't that never once crossed my mind, I just, I wanted to be a Supreme Court justice in fourth grade, and then I wanted to be a psychology researcher. And then I like hit this wall of like, which I think everybody hits, where you realize that your job isn't all the idealistic things that you'd hoped it would be. Right? And then I was like, Well, you know, in research, there's a lot of reasons that what you're looking for, and how you're looking for, it doesn't always give you the truth, you know, and, or it may be kind of does, but it's later and it's halfway there. So, and the money drives it. So now, how can I find another way to discover this? And it's like, well, Music has always been that for me. And it's driven by like, literally a physical feeling like when I go sit down to write I feel it in my stomach. Like this is the thing that I want to say is like okay, go with that you know, and then try and keep expanding that idea that story so it really feels explored and yeah, like resonates in me like physically resonates and then you know, so it's just like a me for me songwriting even when it's for other people, you know, like with the Miley stuff, and the SAM stuff, like those are things that I needed to hear someone say Like I needed to hear someone say like, it's not a waste of time when it doesn't work out with someone, even though you spent all this time building something together, like it's not a waste of time. And, like, so that's, I think that's just what drives me to do all this stuff. And then for some reason, there's like, this hilarious byproduct of like, I am really motivated and driven and, you know, here to make money and take care of people around me, but it feels like the Country Music career is definitely a secondary pursuit, I guess.
Thomas Mooney 20:38
Yeah. Well, I guess like, what I was thinking about was how getting to that space, that place where you're just kind of, in the moment of writing the song, I feel like that can be probably difficult for a lot of people, because you're thinking too much about writing the song versus just writing the song, if that makes sense. Like, maybe like getting in your own way, where you're like, well, this actually doesn't make sense for this right now. And
Cam 21:09
I'm, like, good or whatever, like your people in the room with you, too. Like, do I trust this person? Can I say that out loud? Like, is this? Yeah, is this a dumb idea? You know, am I am I even like, you can start to spiral really fast, you know, that like, hot feeling in your face? where you're like, Oh, my God, I can't say anything. I've totally shut myself down. Because you spiral internally, but like, nothing is good enough. Like, that's definitely. Right. That happened. And I think just if you're a perfectionist, or spent a lot of time thinking about that, because there's definitely people who, maybe or older made a career out of this, and they seem to just be so much happier about it. And they like, take it so. I don't know. It's like, showing up today and written a song and yeah, I'll see ya. You know, like, gotta go home pick up the kids. And I really admire that. And I don't have
I don't I don't have that yet.
Thomas Mooney 22:16
Yeah, like the just the, they're got they've gotten into such like, the the routine of it. Or maybe like, they've always been that way and they're just able to fit that into their life that but that it's definitely a something foreign to me as well. It's,
Cam 22:33
yeah, are the people that are like, oh, right every day and I'm like, Oh, my God, just so hard to pull that off. And like I admire people that can do it. But I think I like that. There's also room for just like, not like I think people think it's lazy. I think there's like some capitalism tied in there to like you got to work every day. But also just like, I think you should feel moved. And right from a place where you feel moved, you know, and make space so that if you're moved everyday you can write
Thomas Mooney 23:07
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lubbock.com click on the merge tab. Get some merge. All right, back to the episode. Yeah, well, I i'm i'm uh, I guess like the belief that lat the the time before you even picked up the pen and paper, and you're just like, those thoughts are in your head. That's like, most of the works. And then like the the routine part of it the the I guess where you're the the the quote unquote work is whenever you're actually kind of when you're when you're editing, I guess, you know what I mean? The I guess like we don't appreciate all that time. The all the living if you will put into the song before, like the actual writing even takes place.
Cam 24:34
Yeah. No, there's I mean, that's what it is. I guess it's like a distillation of your life and experiences and feelings. And then yeah, hopefully it comes together and comes across but like, you know, that's where words I, I would hear that, you know, words are and language is a little bit more. I don't know mathematical about it is a little more clean cut boxes. And then when you get to music, there's kind of room for you can't quite explain why you're feeling the same feeling that I felt but there's something in the music that and it's not just like a tension and release harmonically. There's like something just a little bit more. Like why do people feel a certain way and different keys? You know, like it just music, I think you have a little bit, either, definitely a different paintbrush. And so you kind of are just feeling around in the dark, hoping that you grab on to something that buzzes the right way. And there's gonna puzzle that people, but I guess that's the other thing too is like it? Is it an outcome results driven thing for you. Because even if you do get it, right, it doesn't mean that it's gonna be a multimillion dollar hit maker for you. You know, but it still can hit like a certain section of the population, like really in the heart. And they're just like, Oh, my God, I needed. I needed this.
Thomas Mooney 26:10
Well, you know, I'm going to like the record. Like, it feels like there's or let me backtrack actually a little bit. You mentioned burning house just a second ago. And I feel like this is connected to it. Because you have you noticed that you kind of go into the the imagery of like, infrastructure to represent like, relationships and stuff. As far as like the burning house palace. It feels like there's some like ghosts on this record. As far as like, representing memories. Has that have you? Have you noticed that or, or am I kind of off?
Cam 26:46
Like specific imagery? Sorry, just say infrastructure?
Thomas Mooney 26:49
Yeah, like, like palace for example. Like that? Doesn't say a relation?
Cam 26:54
Oh, like literally structural buildings.
Thomas Mooney 26:58
There's like, yeah,
Cam 26:58
like, I mean, I think I like certain metaphors. My parents are both in construction. So like, maybe that's why it's an easily relatable available. thing for me, the way things are built? Um,
Thomas Mooney 27:16
yeah, I think, a little touch of that and like forgetting you, as well, as far as like, you're kind of going back into a house and like everything, kind of like the AC and stuff like that.
Cam 27:28
Yeah, there's that. I think the definitely the haunting, and the ghosts too. I know, I think there's like a I don't know, you know, like sometimes like the palace one. I remember going in and wanting to write that. Because I was thinking about that Billy Joel song. Like, in every heart, there is a room sanctuary, safe and strong, to heal the wounds of lovers past until a new one comes along. And I love that, like there's a physical space, or something's happening, that you're leaving room for this. But then, for me, I was like, Oh, it's not in your heart. Like it's in your mind with my psychology stuff, you know. So I think sometimes. Also the metaphors, I think, if you can, to me, I like when there's like a visual that comes with it. I think I do like that. That's funny, I haven't really thought about that. But I liked, like, I can picture myself and forgetting you being in a kind of, not as nice hotel room, which is something that I've definitely been in many times, and sitting there alone. And then this person from your past, like creeps back into your thoughts. Kind of the same way, like when you check into a hotel and like to take a non smoking room, and then you get in there and you sit down and like kind of cigarette smoke walks up from the bed, you're like, Oh, god, this is definitely a smoking. And it's I think all of those sort of like real world triggers, help you go or help me go down the path of like, sort of, like all lines it up. So then your little doorways are open and that that feeling that you maybe have been afraid to address or didn't know how to address or put into words like now we're going to pull it out. sort of set the scene for you.
Thomas Mooney 29:28
Yeah, like the that's something that's so tied to memory as well is like the the smell of things. Like there's Yeah, probably. I don't think there's a million smells out there that like that I'll be reminded of whenever I smell them and go, Oh, this reminds me of this, but there's probably like 10 that I could list right now that reminds me of people. That's I feel Yeah, interesting thing that I don't even know if that's explainable for I'm sure it is, but like on a practical level for me
Cam 30:00
Yeah, no, I think there is like brain wise, olfactory. I think that there's something to like, I've noticed about getting older and now with Lucy, my daughter, like, um, you know, seasons kind of concat into different memories. Like, do you remember something that happened like, in the same season? Like a while back? And same thing with Lucy like now having a kid like, ah, like I can, for some reason I can access a lot more childhood memories, too. So it's kind of a Yeah, you get put in different spaces. Maybe that's part of the part of that process.
Thomas Mooney 30:39
Yeah, it's
Cam 30:40
and I definitely visualize things too. Like for, like, whenever I'm writing a song, it comes with. Like, what goodbye means for some reason, like, it has this, like, I picture being outdoors on kind of like a warm night in New Mexico. There's kind of like, sort of like a winding down wedding party with little lights out. And it's like, it's, there's something soft and sweet about it, but sort of sad that it's ending. And I don't know why. But that light comes in there. But that song is like about a friend who went through a really rough divorce. And I remember asking him, like, You're being so nice to her through this. And she's not being nice to you. And like, you know, I'm a Scorpio. So I'm like, why are you? Why are you being so nice back. And he was like she she might change her mind. And it just was like, so tragic to hear that come out of his because you knew I knew where he was coming from, like, when you're not quite ready for the whole truth, like all of us could see that was obviously not going to happen. But he needed to process it in the amounts that he could process it. You know, and like, I don't know, in a way, it's like taking care of yourself. And it just was like, such a sweet, sad sentiment. But anyways, I wrote that song, you know about that story and tapping into that, but still, the song for me lives in this like, you know, kind of warm sadness.
Thomas Mooney 32:13
Yeah, like the like that bitter sweetness of the moment, what I kind of like about what you're saying there is like, my favorite part about even talking with, with people about the songs ever written is, I guess, finding more context for those songs and conceptualizing them. And like, what you kind of described there is kind of like one of those like mood boards, if like there was like,
Cam 32:37
yeah, oh, yeah, every song now we make mood boards for all the songs. It's really fun.
Thomas Mooney 32:42
Yeah, well, okay, like, What is his? When does that come? Is that like, I guess beforehand? Like, I've not really talked with anyone who's done that for?
Cam 32:49
Oh, well. So my manager is basically like, my creative partner. And so we come up with every, like, I write the songs. And then as soon as they like, are together, we start talking about Okay, like, what color are the songs like, what shocker is songs, what sign are the songs, what animal are the songs like what, and we start, like, show put together, I am not good with Pinterest. He will put together the actual boards and go find things. And then we'll be like, comb through them, okay, like, this is not good. This is it. And like, each song has its own aesthetic. So then when we go to make videos, or like visualizers there's a whole thing in there. And like the two of us just have always loved doing this. And that was like, early on. I remember making the made a video. My lawyer also represents Kendrick Lamar. And his manager and him have a very tight creative relationship like this too. And so Lindsay called Dave, the Kendricks manager, and like, talks through like, Okay, what do you guys do? What's your process? And like, just got a whole bunch of tips, you know, unlike where the because you know, you can have this whole process of like, how you visualize things that put together mood boards, but then how does it translate into something in the world, the real world. So that was super helpful. And I think also just like, a good trust in our gut, of like, what it is that we want to make. But that isn't the same for everyone. That's what's so weird about music to like, there's no one way people do business. And there shouldn't be right but then there's people who are like, you know, it just though it's been done this way, and it would be easier if you do it this way. And it's like, I mean, it's art. So people are different. It's subjective. Even the way you make it is subjective. And it's it definitely it's never an easy road. For some reason, to make something exactly like you want it.
Thomas Mooney 34:56
Yeah, well, I always kind of feel like just because we've done something for Long time does not mean it's the right way, like,
Cam 35:03
now, but it's easier because everyone knows how it's supposed to go and they know their part. And they can, the machine can just function.
Thomas Mooney 35:10
Yeah, I mean, like it like on a practical level, or a practical example is like, at one time, people thought the earth was the center of the universe. So like, you know, just things change, and like, why, and especially when you're coming into art, like things shouldn't be gatekeepers, we should be gatekeeping art or like, making no
Cam 35:34
cuz I think that's the thing that like, it's become a business, right? And so the, everything's just tied, like, you know, everything in our culture right now is like, does it make profit? And like, the reason that music exists in every single culture since the beginning of human beings is that it's necessary, like you need music. And it's not because you, we've always needed it, because of the profits, it makes, you know, like, we need it culturally, to understand ourselves to like, bring cohesion or bring dissension when it's necessary. Like, it's all, you know, not to get too high and mighty about it, but it is really important. And it's kind of a bummer when I think people forget the business part of it, it's more emphasized, you know, or it becomes the thing that people are like, Oh, it runs smoothly. And it's so funny, because sometimes, like, I'll just get tired, you know, whatever. Just do it. Just do it the way everybody does it, give a shit, you know, and like Lindy definitely keeps me on the know, we're doing it the way that's true to you. That's why you're doing this because the few times that you get in that space, like whatever I'll just do with easy. It also just like, is a very slippery slope to not want to do it anymore. You know, because it's not like lighting something up in you, then you're not going to want to spend your time doing it. It's not. I know, it sounds like a really fun career. But it definitely comes with a lot of you're away from your family. Or, you know, your relationships. take a toll like there's a lot of stuff that comes with this career choice. It's like, you know, you could, I can make money other ways to do it this way. But if it's something that really is helping me figure myself out and figure out the world, then
it's worth it. I
Thomas Mooney 37:40
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Unknown Speaker 38:36
Alright, that's
Thomas Mooney 38:37
it for Thomas Mooney, his cocktail minute. Let's get back to the show. Right? Yeah, like it's I always, whenever I'm talking with friends and stuff, they always kind of always. I always feel like I'm being negative about everything. And it's like, no, it's actually because I like I care that much. I really actually do love all this. And that's why I graded ticket you know, or just like talk about the worst aspects because like we I think we have to be real we just can't have like the rose colored glasses on all the time about everything. So I wanted to go back to like the the mood board thing though, because I feel that that to me. It seems like that's just like a like, artistic. It seems like really, really fun to be able to do that. But I also kind of feel like that's a very practical thing to do. That's Yeah, like,
Cam 39:37
Yeah, I think so. It's easier to share with people and get people on the same page. Like another way of expressing yourself. And like, conceptually sort of like lining up things without having to just like, you know, how they say like, talking about music is like dancing about architecture. It's just like really hard to just get on the same page with people just talking about Got it. And so, no, I love. I love that stuff. And I love being organized, too. I think for Dana cuz listening on this call and normally has to do a lot of the organization for me, but I love things being efficient. And just like having a step by step process, even if it's different, like it's still a process, like how to get there and get there efficiently. And maybe that's kind of like me being from San Francisco and like, Silicon Valley vibes or something. But like, yeah, there's a way to do it. And there's some technology that can help you get there like, go go do it.
Thomas Mooney 40:39
Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's, for me, I think it's just so I don't know, like, as far as like artists go and songwriters, I think sometimes we, we build up the the romanticism of like, being the the true artist. And that's really, really great. And like, everyone, all, a lot of these songwriters and artists are artists, but like, also, like, sometimes you don't have to explain things in these abstract ways of like, how effortless it was, you can tell
Cam 41:08
that romantic thing, I am not with that at all. Like, I hate that To be honest, like, first off, there's all kinds of personalities. And there's all kinds of cultural time periods that require the outsider or the narrator or the commentator, it wouldn't just be one kind of person, for all of times, you definitely need. It's stupid to think that like, a musician is only one type of person. And then I think it's also really I'm trying to think of the inhibiting, to say, to people that are in art. You shouldn't Don't worry about business. Don't worry about the money. Which sounds great if that was really real, like if everybody was like, threw capitalism out the window, and something else right now, but it's not. And you have to take care of yourself and your people. And especially they like to I just feel like people use that romanticization romanticization honeys about romanticization romantic romanticism, people who romanticize it, I think it gets used to keep artists in the dark. Because a lot of times we say like, or whatever societal reasons, like, especially women, like we want them young. So like maybe they haven't gone to college yet. And of course, you can still have street smarts. If you hadn't, you know, and the common sense graded accounting and stuff if you haven't gone to school, but like, a lot of people then get surrounded by people that say it's like infantilizing to like you, you just stay there, you focus on your music, like you'd be free. And it's like, the real world isn't like that, like, you need to know how to do your laundry and how to do your taxes. And you need to know what's going into your taxes. And you need to know how you're paying your people are taking care of them or like are your is your manager actually making sure they're getting taken care of or like who, you know, who does what, and there's a lot of freedom in learning that. And I felt really lucky early on to meet my lawyer who's like, I think this kind of new generation of lawyers, that isn't just like, Oh, I know, so and so. And I'm going to stand on those laurels for the rest of my career. And like they end up just like everyone wants the most famous big name lawyer. And he is obviously doing really well and has a lot of great clients. But it's because he also makes sure that his clients are the smartest people in the room. So he doesn't have to come in and like, clean up a mess later, because you said something he's like, you know exactly how to get yourself into the right position, and then I can make sure we get you into even better one. And it's like that, yeah, I could go off for a while about that stuff. I just, I think it's ridiculous. People think you can separate, like, important real world knowledge. You know, because definitely the people on the other side of it that are doing your business for you. They know, like they know what they're doing and how they're getting paid.
Thomas Mooney 44:18
Yeah, well, it's one of those things like it's not a you guys aren't living in a bubble with different rules. Yeah, you're, but I guess like the the idea the concept of the struggling artists, I feel like you can use that as a crutch as well. Or, or as an excuse or,
Cam 44:43
and also like to be real, like, the struggling artists thing like to get in the game. And people are like, Oh, I struggled like I struggled. But I struggled because I knew I wasn't about to fall out a bottom of the bottom. You know what I mean? Like I had family, that would be helped me out if I really got there. So like, when people are like, you got like, it's really To be honest, it's kind of unfair, the way it's set up to like to get in this game, you got to struggle, everyone's like, well, you got to earn your keep. And that in itself is a barrier to a lot of people that don't, they can't just not make money, and not work certain hours of the day, and be available for travel. And I'll do it up front with their time and not have anything to compensate them, they got to go get a job. And so like, I think that's why also like to be really real, it affects like the art cool, because who can who can sort of like, that's their livelihood, you know, who has the ability to do that? Especially in like a world that's so expensive now in so many cities? Well, like there's no art scene left.
Thomas Mooney 45:57
Yeah, I was wondering
how, like this year is going to affect that. Because if, if we're going to, not just like on artists as far as like songwriters and, and like the visual concept, artists, but like, also just, if you think of like small businesses that are so tied to minorities as far as, like, for example, like restaurants, so many restaurants are being closed due to the pandemic in this economy and everything. And I wonder like, in 1015 years, we've kind of like re like whitewashed a lot of American cities, because it's just burger joints and not these like really great restaurants that are being run by your favorite ethnic food. You know, these, like these families that have been here forever.
Cam 46:50
Yeah, Mom and Pop stuff. No, totally. I mean, like, I can't float like in artists world, it's definitely like, you can't float your band for months on end, when you have no income. So like, there's a whole ecosystem that just got messed up. I know ours is like, really bad. Definitely a lot of the other, like, people in tech seem to be working just fine. But like everybody else is like, no, it's gonna have massive consequences. I remember, I went to Nepal and like, went to after college and I went to this spot called man, he was like, go to Katmandu, take a four hour bus to Pokhara Chica, I don't know how many hour like eight hour taxi ride into the middle of nowhere until like this place called Benny and then you hike up 10 hours to the middle of nowhere, there's no cars. And I remember being up there. And I was with these two Canadians who were up there to like volunteering helping out, which is a whole other story about how useless and not helpful A lot of us young American kids are. But we were up there. And I remember we got to a spot where anything that came in there had come up by like donkey. So like, there was, you know, sort of cosmetic things or shampoo or whatever. It's just like a little hut where you could like, buy your stuff like little store. And there were cokes there. And I was like, Oh, my God, I really want a coke. And I'd forgotten my cash or whatever. And freezer, can I borrow like, a couple rupees and like, this isn't a lot of money. It's like very, very cheap. I just want to get a coke. And he was like, No, like, what? And he was so committed, like, full on my hippie pal. He was like, I can't contribute to you spending money on Coca Cola. I was like, we're in the middle of nowhere, man. Like, I just really want to go hog wild with the color rubies. And he was like, No, because like, in the end, you're going to have what you're talking about a forest with trees that all look the same. Like all these same big trees, you're not going to have the little guys, you're not going to have the diversity, you're not going to have a real forest anymore. And he saw it all the way back down to the like, initial choices of are you going to support this company? And I remember like just being so pissed at him. That it really stuck with me that he told me that sounds like Yeah, he's probably probably really right and watching it happen right now.
Thomas Mooney 49:31
Yeah, that's Yeah,
I it's it's such a it's a great story, though. I don't know. I'm just I'm just thinking about. I wanted to talk to you one more time about Hot damn coffee at Eastern Tennessee. The morning comes at you hard and there's only one thing that can charge you up for the day. That's coffee. Sure you could fill up with whatever you can find on the bottom shelf at your local giant box store. But do you Know what works better, Hot damn coffee. Why? Because our single origin and high quality there are downhome company passionate about great cups of coffee. And of course, they love great music too, which is why we've partnered up here on new slang. Go visit Hot damn dot coffee and order yourself some robust smooth and high quality coffee grounds and beans join their subscription club as a new slang listener. Put slang in all caps in the coupon code box at checkout for 20% off your order, you'll be saving some cash getting some of the finest coffee around and helping support new slang. The music podcast that you know and love again, that's hot damn coffee. All right, let's get back to the interview. Yeah, getting back to the the record you you know you've written with so many great artists in the past. And there's some really great co writes on this album. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about like the the Lori McKenna and Hillary Lindsey co right. I just I find like those two and like they're just, I don't know, like they're just kind of like writing some of the best stuff of our lifetime. What is it like? Like sitting in a room with with?
Cam 51:22
Yeah, have you gotten to talk to them?
Thomas Mooney 51:24
I've talked with Laurie like one for an interview. Oh, great. Well, back in. Yeah, there was I don't know. I guess it was like when our last record came out. So
Cam 51:36
yeah, they I mean, like, Laurie, I always refer to as like the poet of our generation, like, I'm just blown away because she, she wrote on forgetting you and I'm alone, or forgetting you. She wrote on. Like a movie. I did that with the love junkie. So it was like, all three of them with Liz rose. And then Okay, I'm blanking, but only she wrote changes with hairstyle. So like, I normally write everything because like, you know, I've been saying this, this is my journey to figure myself out. So I guess I don't feel like taking secondhand knowledge really helps me get there. So anyways, I normally don't take outside songs. And then I heard the song and it was the demo. And Laurie sang it. And you know how Laurie just as anything she sings, you just believe it. Like she just bought this. So just hits right in the middle of like the note she's delivering in such a way that's so. And I remember hearing that song and just like, Ah, it's so beautiful. I I love writing with her. But I was just so tickled by that song changes that definitely had to have that one too. And like, yeah, being around her and Hillary, like, it's, I think it's really interesting, because I think of them as they are artists, you know, and they, I think, could definitely just be doing that full time instead of working with other people. But for whatever reason, they are working with other people, and they're just, there's an extra creative tool in their bag that isn't just like, I can tap into something and tell a truth in a very interesting way. They also know how to sit in a room and be very comfortable and just like throw out ideas. Without the like. I think that like scared personal attachment that I think most of us have where you're like, Oh my god, I'm saying this baby out loud. And what if they don't like it or don't like me and they don't have that. They're happy to keep thinking and keep throwing things out and going in whatever direction and they're, they know how to work with people, but then also, like, stand firm when it's like no, I really do think this is the best way. It's like a it's a very Yeah, it's a very interesting tool to learn how to do and they both are amazing at it. And like you know, Hillary, we we also wrote the the title track the other side together with Tim of Ichi, and we're in a session and it was me and Tyler Johnson who I work with all the time and Hillary and Tim and Tim had this like melody and he just kept playing it over and over and over and over and over and we were just like, Whoa, this is it wasn't like a Comfortable like, oh, let me everyone feel good. And we'll get to the end of the session, we'll have a song and see later and you'll want to call me next time because this was nice, you know, it was definitely like, Kim had a vision for what he wanted. And it needed to be that exact thing. Like he probably had mood boards, you know what I mean? And he was like, we got to find this. And so he kept playing it, and we were throwing out ideas and I, I got so like, I hit my limit kind of with it and took a cigarette break, and I don't even smoke cigarettes like me and Hillary went outside and we like came up with this chorus idea came back in and it was so cool. I remember thinking that Hillary everything she throws out, even if you decide not to go with it was still like an amazing idea. Like amazing melody. Like perfect words to fit that melody. Like, there's no crap lines that come out of her. So we came in, showed him and he was like, that's perfect. But there's like this one vowel, that should be an all sound that word. And it was so new to me to have someone say, not just like, the cadence of how you would speak. The words should match the cadence of the melody, but also your phonetics need to be 100% it was like, next level songwriting and he was such a perfectionist, that it that it was amazing to you. By the end of it, I was so exhausted, you're so just drained. Like you're just sitting there in a room, but by the end, you're just so mentally drained. And I left there being like a song is amazing. Like, and he knew how to pull the best of everyone including like a Hillary literally, like everything that he could out of it to make sure that song was just like
perfect.
Yeah, very, very incredible songwriters. Really, really lucky. They don't mind sitting around and writing. You know, Taylor wrote till there's nothing left to like, yeah, they're all over the record. I'm really thankful and proud that they like their talents to it. Yeah,
Thomas Mooney 57:14
the that the the sound thing. I love that like the only time I've really ever heard anyone kind of talk about that is like no Gallagher of Oasis always talked about how he knew his brother sang certain vowels, like long vowels really well. And so then he tried to like, put as many of those in two songs as possible. I think that's such a, an interesting thing, because it's like he, he knew what the idea was, I guess, like what he had in mind. And then it was like, just, just I don't know, like, finding the right pieces. And then just knowing like, Okay, this fits. We just need this other little thing that doesn't fit just perfect. And now it does.
I don't know.
Cam 58:04
Yeah. No, they always say like, the constraints are what, you know, define your style, more than like your abilities. Because it's like, you get to just, there's certain things like, if you're not good at, then you end up being really good at working around them. Like, reminds me my friend's mom who grew up. She was dyslexic, and she just was like, fucking brilliant. should work so hard to get things done, you know, when it wasn't easy for her to read. And so yeah, her work ethic was like, insane. And I feel like the same thing in music, it's almost kind of better. If like, you have a thing that you are specifically, like, I will I can only do this one thing. So then you sort of work in that one space, and you get really good at it.
Thomas Mooney 58:48
Yeah, you put that a lot better than, than I have. Because I've, I've I've tried to explain that to the people the sometimes like to think outside the box and like, be really creative. You have to like say, this is the box that I wanted in. Yeah. And
Cam 59:06
no, it is. It feels like, you know, and maybe that's a very American thing. We want all freedom and all the choice. But sometimes, it can be really overwhelming to be like, Okay, well today, like I'm sure, like when you look at a blank page, like oh my god, every time I start a song, I'm like, Oh my god, can I even write songs? Am I any good at any of this? Like, I don't even know. And then sure enough, you just start putting things down there and it comes together. You end up having one later. It's definitely uh, but, um, yeah, it's a wild process. And super wild to that. Like I play guitar, like I don't play that often. But like I played it, like on the recording palace and stuff like that for Sam. But I I think having a instrument inside you when you're singing too, is also a whole other level like you're writing These words, and you're singing from inside you. So it's not like you can like look at it. So it's, it feels so easy to like, over identify with your art form and your music to when you're a singer, which is like kind of the joke because like, we're overly emotional and sensitive. But I think also like singers who write, you know, I think it plays into that to kind of bleeds into, like that sensitivity when you're trying to put things together.
Thomas Mooney 1:00:29
Yeah, yeah. I think like this, this ties to something else that I've kind of talked about too with people is how, like, be the songwriter I think like the the the best, I guess attribute for a songwriter is like empathy. If you have empathy like that, can make you such a better songwriter. But like it's juxtaposed with a lot of songwriters being the the front Person of the band, the singer, and that usually is being like the extrovert and being like, all about me, or like the spotlight being on you just because like, that's the nature of the beast. And yeah, like,
Cam 1:01:09
I do have say, I don't think it's, I don't know that it's empathy unless you're writing for other people. Like they give you're writing for yourself. It's just like introspection. Like, all you have to be is, like very honest, which I think if you're kind of like a narcissist, it's not that hard to be so obsessed with your own life every day. And the details of it think that everyone will find it so interesting. But you're on the flip side of that, like you're, you don't have the shame or the guardedness that so many people that are more sensitive. empathic people are like, oh, maybe they don't really want to hear this from me. Like, I think sometimes he gets confused for like, I do that, you know, like, when you like, there's definitely a lot of times I dated, super big assholes. I'm kind of like vacillate between a data guy that's very, you know, sensitive and nurturing. And like, then the next guy would do with these super asshole. And I think I, I liked it because I thought they were being more honest. I was like, oh, they're not going to like, filter anything for me. And I what I really want is the truth right now. And so sometimes I think we all get run over by assholes that have no filter, because we wish we had no filter. It's like, don't really make it more true. Just means they're more willing to say things that the rest of us wouldn't say.
Thomas Mooney 1:02:37
Yeah. I don't know. It's it's a that's interesting, too, because I but I relate that to big time, too, is like in sports, where they want a team hires a coach. There's basically like two camps like the
Cam 1:02:53
Yeah, like
Thomas Mooney 1:02:54
the the players coach. And then like the drill sergeant, you know, and I feel like that's exactly the same thing right there.
Cam 1:03:02
Oh, my God. Have you watched the new Michael Jordan? Netflix?
Thomas Mooney 1:03:06
Yes. I Ah, that's like it that goes to our I guess like the love of like, what you're saying like love of the asshole of like, him being just kind of no filter and also just being able to
Cam 1:03:21
then phil jackson being like, kind of. Yeah, then right.
Thomas Mooney 1:03:26
Yeah, he's definitely filled. Definitely had mood boards. He I love like how Phil just kind of, Hey, this is our book club to like, we're a team. But yeah.
Cam 1:03:43
So cool. It's so fun to watch that too. I was just like, ah, those were the days. Like, I think kind of like with music, too. I guess just that time in your life where you're so like, you just have heroes. You know, like how people are like, Oh, God, music was so good back then. Whatever. It's like, probably when you were like 1213. And same thing with like, sports. I'm just like, oh my god. I remember. Like, I didn't even realize when I was watching that documentary. I remember all those names. You're all those guys. And they were like our heroes. Yeah. And I think it's it is a is weirder. Because like, by the time you usually are making an impact on the world, you're a little bit older. And it's like, okay, I feel like I have to temper like, Okay, this doesn't seem to be the same as how my heroes did it. It's like also you're remembering them from like, a 12 year old vantage point. So it's just a whole other I don't know. Growing up, you know?
Thomas Mooney 1:04:40
Yeah, well, like it the the nostalgia thing. The there has to be a part of this too. It's like, we never heard like all the bad stories in sports back in the 90s. The way like, I guess like journalists have access now. You know what I mean? So it's the the Michael Jordan image was always You know it kind of just pristine except for like the gambling stuff and of course when I was 1213
Okay,
well I don't know what that even is that even mean gambling on on a golf games and okay. I don't understand that Yeah, I remember that. So
Cam 1:05:21
for me like Space Jam here we go
Thomas Mooney 1:05:22
yeah
yeah it's it's I love that document or any what my favorite or one of the things I was about it was like when they announced it there six hours you know it's gonna be about this one season about Michael Jordan now yada yada yada. And at the time I was like six hours seems really really long. But right now I could go for like another six hours easily.
Cam 1:05:46
I know. So crazy. I loved basketball today like I used to play from like, I'm probably third grade all the way through like junior varsity. And then I think the coach of our high school got fired and I'd been like kind of in this program. So then when he left I just stopped playing basketball,
junior year or whatever. But I love that game.
Thomas Mooney 1:06:10
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for for coming on today. I've really enjoyed it.
Cam 1:06:16
Yeah, it's so nice just chatting. Thanks for caring and for having really interesting questions. I feel like it's nice to get tonight to have time to get more in depth about stuff. So I appreciate it.
Thomas Mooney 1:06:28
Okay, that is it. For this one. Be sure to check out the other side by cam. Go check out our presenting partners over at Desert door Hot damn coffee, and the blue light live. Go stop by our merch store, check out the Patreon and yeah, we'll go in and see y'all later this week for another episode.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai