123: Kären McCormick
On Episode 123 of New Slang, I'm joined by up-and-coming pop country singer-songwriter Kären McCormick. McCormick is releasing her debut EP, a five-song collection of tunes called Retro. McCormick very much is one of these new, bright voices in pop country who are directly influenced and inspired by the rise of Taylor Swift in the mid-2000s and the '90s country her mother played while McCormick was growing up. McCormick's blend of clever hooks, intimate and first-person narrative storytelling about young love and loss feels warm and natural while her smooth vocals are brimming with loads of potential.
During this conversation, we talk about moving to Nashville, releasing her debut EP in the midst of a quarantine, how essential an artist like Taylor Swift is and was for her (and many, many rising voices in country music), her rich heritage, and what's it's like being a multiracial woman artist trying to break into country music in 2020.
This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol and The Blue Light Live.
Interview Transcript
Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.
Thomas Mooney 0:00
Hey everyone, welcome to new slang. I'm music journalist Thomas Mooney. And yeah, we're closing out the week with Episode 123, where I'm joined by rising pop country singer songwriter Corrine McCormack, which I'm sure she's someone most of y'all may not be familiar with. She's one of these new singer songwriters in Nashville. She's more on the pop country, Taylor Swift side of things. I think she's loaded with potential though. That's obviously like the main reason why I want her to come on the sling. But also I wanted to talk with her for a few other reasons. Namely, being such a new artist, and trying to establish herself in Nashville and in country music as both a woman and because she's multiracial. Her mother is from the Republic of Congo, and her father is from Minnesota, and they met when he was in the Peace Corps. So Karen, she was born in the Republic of Congo spent parts of her childhood there and in Cameroon, before her family finally settled in Spokane, Washington. So On this episode, we talk about some of that heritage and having more global experience than most of us, certainly me, and obviously trying to break into country music as an African American woman. And something that I didn't really think about until we actually got into the interview was how the quarantine has had an effect on her as a budding artist. Obviously, it's affected the entire music industry as a whole, just about everyone connected has felt that but what I mean by that is her specifically being an artist who is in the middle of releasing your very first project, and obviously moved to Nashville to try and establish herself. All of a sudden, there's so many less people you can meet. There's so many less shows, less songs, swaps, and just like less opportunities to write and connect and perform, which, when you move to Nashville, that's the things that you want, you write, you're wanting to meet people, you're wanting to get all those practice hours in playing in front of crowds. And then obviously, you're wanting to write and get better at writing. And all of a sudden, like, all that's just kind of taken away, or is more difficult to accomplish. Anyway, I found our conversation to be incredibly insightful. As I mentioned, she's releasing her very first EP, it's called retro and it's out Friday, September 25. Today's presenting sponsor is desert door, Texas SoTL. If you know anything about me, it's probably that I'm from the heart of West Texas and absolutely love everything about West Texas. And that's really why I love desert door so much. You may be asking yourself what exactly SoTL is, well, it's a premium spirit that similar to a tequila or a Moscow, but for my money, it's a little bit more refined and smooth. There's a sweetness and faint hints of vanilla and citrus and it's also as versatile as your garden variety vodka. At its core desert door is authentically West Texas, they go out and harvest Soto plants from the wild and bring them back to their distillery over in driftwood, Texas. So next time you're at your local liquor store, get a bottle of desert door. For more info, check this episode show notes. As a reminder, the new slang Patreon is up and running. It's been getting a lot of really great feedback so far. And by far our most popular tier is the new slang postcard pal. So for five bucks a month, you get ad free episodes of Newsline and the monthly Newsline show poster print that I've been making as of late, you'll get those in postcard for right now. There's six months worth for 2020 April through September. And right now if you sign up for the Patreon, before the end of the month, I'll shoot you all of those as well. So you'll have a full collection again for only $5 a month. It's a super easy, cool, fun way to support the podcast. Again all of that will be in the show notes if you're interested. Yeah, I think this is about done here is Corrine McCormack so you have this EP coming out your first EP. Just this in a couple of weeks here. I guess like to start off with it is a What have you had to do? I guess with the pandemic and everything like that. Was there. Did you put this off a little bit further out because of that or anything like that, or was this always kind of the plan?
Kären McCormick 4:43
I did. I did push it back. It was originally going to be released in July of this year. And I was in Washington state when the pandemic really started to hit hard back in March. And I was home with my parents. And I was like I don't, I have no idea what the next few weeks and months are going to look like. And I have put so much time and energy and just dedicated, you know, the past year to this project, I really want to make sure that I at least have a little bit of control over how it's released. I do think that there's something to be said about, you know, if you believe in the project, and you believe in the songs, the right people will find them, regardless of whether it's released in three months, or in, you know, six months, but I just really, as an artist wanted to make sure that I had a little bit of, Okay, I had this intention behind it. And so we kind of just, for me, at least I hit the drawing board, and I was like, Okay, what can I do? In the meantime, if I do push it back to September, and one of the things that I did was something that I've always wanted to do, which was, I filmed a music video for one of the songs, I started to collaborate with some different graphic designers and think of how can we kind of create more visuals to really bring some of the songs to life and the build up to the release, and kind of just get creative in different ways. I'm definitely a visual person, I'm a visual artist, and I was thinking, Okay, maybe we should take this opportunity to think of just new ways to promote basically new ways to share the stories of I'm sure many artists are thinking as well. So often, I think when you release music, it kind of gets, Okay, here we go. It's yours to take. But I think that several artists are thinking, I really want people to live the story and see the story that I see inside my head. And so I really started to focus on that. And I just landed on September, and I can't believe we're already here. It really, really flew by. But I'm really excited for people to hear it.
Thomas Mooney 7:06
Yeah, like it's, it's obviously been such a strange time in general. And, you know, a lot of established artists have had this trouble figuring out, oh, you know, I have this record, I've been sitting on it. Do we kind of waited it out? Because, you know, obviously, so much of a pushing a record is being on tour? And do we kind of like, figure that out? Or do we try to wait it out? Should we just go and release it now? And there's like, there's no right answer. There's no wrong answer. And I can't imagine, on top of that, being a new artist, you know, like you've kind of been putting it all together for this first release for so long. You know, like, that's what you've had to have been dreaming about for forever is like, when's that first project going to be coming together, and then all of a sudden, you know, you throw in a pandemic, and all the rules are kind of like, thrown out the window and the worlds on pause, but also not on pause. And it's just such a frustrating time.
Kären McCormick 8:13
But it's it's interesting, because I was talking to a fellow artist, and we were talking about how it kind of seems like we're right at the beginning of not only artists, but a lot of just creative spaces, trying to figure out how they're going to adapt, I think we kind of are all at the place where we're like, we really don't know how long this is going to last how long live music will be what it is now, which is this like social distancing experience or the driving experience. And so it's kind of like, okay, now, we don't want to sit around and just kind of twiddle our thumbs for the next year. So we're really I think, at the beginning of trying to figure out what this next year will look like in terms of live music, being an artist and creating and I really think that it will definitely be heightened Dawn's creating, recording, I mean, we have people as big as Taylor Swift, you know, spending in quarantine, recording and releasing a full album. And I think it's really interesting because it does kind of level the playing field a little bit in terms of, like you said, there's no rules. So it's kind of like, there's a, I think, overall understanding of sympathy. Whether you're a large artist, or whether you are an independent artist just starting out, it's just this empathy of like, we don't really know what's gonna happen. We don't really know what the next year or two will look like. But as long as I think you are focused on, hey, I have something I have this art that I created, and I want people to hear it. I want people to connect with it. I really don't think that you can go wrong with that.
Thomas Mooney 10:00
Yeah, like, it's it's so weird too, because I think early on, we were all so naive, right? We were so thinking, you know, maybe this is going to just last a couple of months, maybe it'll last a few weeks, and then we can get back to normal. And so I understand, like, why so many people in the spring put off, putting the record out into until like, mid summer or late summer, but then also at the same time, like, once that time started passing, and it became evident, like, we're not going back to normal by, you know, July. That's whenever you're you feel like you're frustrated, because you're kind of in this no man's land, this middle ground of like, should I put it out? Should I put it off? Should I keep it? should I? What should I do? And as you said, like, I think a lot of fan bases are sympathetic to the cause, because so much of this industry is driven by those live shows, people buying merch at live events, versus, you know, I guess like back in the day, people bought CDs, records, right. And now it's, it's more to do with merch and going out on tour to sell a record versus going, I guess, like you release a record to go on tour versus really sort of going on tour to promote a record. You know what I'm saying? That makes sense.
Kären McCormick 11:30
Absolutely. And I think that, truly, it wasn't until just a couple of weeks ago that I really kind of came to that solid realization like, oh, wait a second. Live music is not going to be quote unquote, normal for several months, if not a year, maybe in some places two years. And it was really kind of like a wake up call. because like you said at the beginning, I think so many of us were like, okay, we have this, you know, new situation to deal with, we don't know what it's gonna look like. But I think we were all under the assumption that would be a couple months. And I think that's the one thing that's especially I think, an uphill battle and uphill kind of just, I still haven't figured that part out yet of being an independent artist, of navigating the live show experience. Because live shows, for me is where I definitely feel like I make the most connection with people where I can, you know, meet somebody that I've never met before and play for them and talk to them after their show. And, you know, say, Hey, I'm Korean, I play music, I write songs, and really have that face to face human connection, so that they can put a human being behind the music that they're listening to, and then hopefully go home and stream the songs or download the songs. And I definitely know that that's one of my favorite aspects about this career. It's the one that I look forward to the most, especially in the summer, and it's very, just kind of this weird Limbo of like, are we even going to have those venues, you know, that independent artists of any play at the smaller venues that really act as kind of a propeller for some of those smaller artists. And I really don't know what that's gonna look like. And I think that a lot of smaller independent artists are kind of starting to say, Okay, if we are kind of back in a more normal live music scene in a year or two, what do we do if those venues don't exist anymore? I'm like, how do we then find those opportunities to perform for people. And that's definitely been something that's been kind of in the back of my mind, as I think about putting out this EP is like, one of the things I was looking forward to the most was not only releasing it, but then getting to play the songs for people in person and, you know, hold the physical copy for the first time and like sell the first one and things like that. And so that'll be interesting to see what the next year looks like.
Thomas Mooney 14:03
And then obviously, with you, you just you recently moved to Nashville. And Nashville is such a obviously it's the music capital of country music, and so much of what artists are built on is performing and getting those runs in getting for lack of a better term, practice. You know, like playing and practicing, honing your craft as far as the stage presence and performing. That's just kind of taken away from me at this point. What have you What are you thinking? What are you thought? What are your thoughts on that as far as being an up and coming artist who needs that that time to hone your craft as a performer and a singer and learn I guess, like all the ins and outs of performing and what goes on behind stage and before shows and after shows And all that mix?
Kären McCormick 15:04
That's a great question. And it's a I don't know that I have a solid answer for it yet, because I feel like one thing for sure that I love about living in Nashville is just like watching performers, watching writers writers rounds, because as a songwriter, have gained so much inspiration or perspective. And just hearing those stories, that's something that I really enjoyed doing. And one of my biggest takeaways is watching a songwriter who's been in the business for 10 2030 plus years, talk about their songs and the way that they are through and through storytellers, and kind of thinking, Okay, how can I bring that to my performances, and talk to the audience, not only as, hey, I'm current, but also like, I'm current, I'm a storyteller, these are my stories, and really make sure that I'm connecting with them. And not having the ability to do that. And like take notes. And basically like, I kind of think of Nashville is like grad school is like taking notes. It was like, learning from all these people who have been here for so long not having that opportunity for the last six months, it definitely kind of a I mean, I feel like I'm missing something, it feels like a piece of me is missing, because I'm not doing music and not on top of that not getting to experience it. But then it also makes me like nervous because if we can't do something similar for a whole nother year, it's like how do you make sure that you're staying on top of your game and making sure that you aren't rusty, when the time comes, you know, if you get a call that says, hey, we can perform now, you want to make sure you're ready to go. And I don't know exactly how to navigate that just yet. Because, like I said, just within the last few weeks is when it really hit me. You know, it was like a wake up call. Like, I remember in March, we were all thinking September would be the time like, Oh, well, by September, we'll be back to normal. And now we're in September. And we're not back to normal. And so it's definitely it's unfortunate. The overall feeling, I think, for me is just it's unfortunate, because like you said, it really is an opportunity for so many smaller artists who are on the up and up to just learn and take everything in and not having that opportunity is definitely a bummer. But I do think that it allows and pushes artists to be more creative. Think outside the box and think of how can I still make that connection with a listener? And how can I push myself to still make sure I'm honing in on my craft and being creative. And I think that that can actually be a positive. And that's something that I'm working on trying to figure out now.
Thomas Mooney 17:57
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Kären McCormick 19:56
It is and I think it's especially interesting to Watch those artists who are really big on touring, like watching them try to navigate it is something that I've been kind of paying attention to. And, you know, some of the ways that they do it is doing live streams. And some people are doing like driving experiences, which Nashville is kind of starting to do. And it's interesting. And I am curious to see how if that becomes the new way that we do things like how long it will take to kind of feel normal, and that sentence, you know, everything that's new, when that's when things change. Everybody's always a little bit like, what is this gonna look like? And it feels a little awkward and bumpy. And then, who knows, like, maybe that'll be the new thing, you know, but it is interesting to watch some of my favorite artists, how each of them kind of have a different approach to things. And so it's just, there's still opportunity to learn, they still opportunity to pay attention and figure out, you know, hey, maybe something like that would work for me or something here would work for me, but it's definitely not the same, which is unfortunate.
Thomas Mooney 21:11
Yeah. Now, obviously, how has that like affected your songwriting? Like, being able to just this this entire time just kind of being in this pause? How has that affected your songwriting? Has it Have you? Do you feel like you've gotten better just simply because there's more time to, to write?
Kären McCormick 21:34
Yes, and no, I feel like when I go to write now, there's definitely much more intention behind it of, Hey, I have something that I want to say. And the reason being really, because, unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of inspiration right now, because I, for me, I like to ride off of personal experience. My songs are very autobiographical. And when you're not able to go out and do things and hang out with people, it becomes a little bit more difficult to find that inspiration. But at the same time, we have a lot of things going on, not only in the world, but especially in our country. And I've learned that I can kind of shift that storytelling, for me to not just be something that has directly happened to me. But also it can be a perspective, a What do I think about this, or this is how I feel about this. And truth be told, I've never really approached my songwriting in that kind of way. So really, it's been, while it's been fewer songs written or fewer writes happening, it's really been more of a gross type of songwriting of, hey, I want to talk about this, which is more of an out of body experience, but I want to talk about my perspective on it, and how this is impacting me. And things like that, which, when I moved to Nashville, you know, I knew that one of the big reasons I wanted to move there was because I wanted to grow as a songwriter. And one of the things, one of the ways that you do that is you really challenge yourself. And I feel like that's really where a lot of my songwriting has been, it hasn't been as often as it was, you know, pre pandemic, but when now when I go to write, if I call one of my co writers and say, like, Hey, this is what I'm thinking, at least now, it's not let's just write a song to write a song, it's, I really have something to say, I really am feeling this deeply. This is on my heart and things like that.
Thomas Mooney 23:36
Yeah, it's always an interesting moment. Wherever that wherever that watershed moment is for an early artist, because when you first start out, you are full of like, all of this, like energy and like, you're just, I don't know, like a lot of my friends when they first started writing songs. They're just writing songs like every chance they get. And obviously, a lot of them never get recorded or anything like that. But it's just like, you're never tapped out on on inspiration, like literally anything is going to inspire you. But then at some point you do transition into, like you said, being a little bit more intentional and a little bit more. I don't know, like knowing like, this is what I'm excited about, or I need to try this or what have you.
Kären McCormick 24:27
Absolutely. And it's interesting, because I noticed that especially probably a couple months into my second year of living in Nashville, I just recently passed that two year mark. And I definitely noticed in that first year, I was very much like you're saying it's like, every single day possible, you know, try to write a new song, and just kind of get in that habit of writing, writing, writing. But then I think especially because I am also an art It's like, then us kind of start to figure out okay, as an artist, what kind of stories? Am I trying to say? What messages do I want to get across, and then you really start to kind of have more laser focus for that kind of subject material, those type of topics of conversation and things like that, which I think is a wonderful thing. I think, for me as a human being, it means that I've taken a lot of pressure off of myself, because I think when I first moved to Nashville, I felt a lot of pressure to be very go, go go, you know, always be writing or always be at a show. And I'm very glad that I had that mentality. But I've also noticed that there's something to be said about, you know, if you need a break, or if you need a second, or you need, you know, fewer rights, because you are happier with the songs and you know that those are the songs you're going to cut. I think there's something really positive to be said about that as well.
Thomas Mooney 25:54
Yeah, like, I imagine, it's kind of like, trying to jump on a treadmill that's already, like full speed, and you're trying to catch up, but then also, you, at some point, realize, you can just hit the button to make it go slower. You know what I mean? Like, that's, I feel like that has to be the what it feels like when you just jump into, or move into a move to a place that is like the epicenter of what you're wanting to do.
Kären McCormick 26:22
Absolutely. That's a great analogy. And honestly, that's exactly, for me, at least how it felt for sure. I had visited Nashville before. And I had a little bit of an idea of what it was like, and I knew it was very much is a very much a hustling town. And, you know, Nashville, very much prides itself on that as well. But at the same time, I think that then for me, I was starting to say, Okay, well, if I didn't write a song today, like did I was that productive today, you know, it started to kind of think that way. But everybody is going to move at their own speed, kind of like you're saying, and everybody is going to look at things a different way. For some it's going to be Hey, I wrote three songs this week. That's a great week. For some it's going to be Hey, I wrote one song this week, but I know I'm gonna cut it. And it's a fantastic song. And I'm excited about it. And there's no right or wrong between the two of those things. And I think it took me a couple years to kind of figure that out and figure out that flow that, hey, just because somebody else is kind of working at a different speed than me or they're approaching their songwriting, career or songwriting pattern different than me, there's nothing wrong with that. At the end of the day, we both love music, we both love writing songs, we just might have a different approach to it.
Thomas Mooney 27:46
Yeah, I feel like it's always been this way. But especially within like this last 10 years with a lot of social media, a lot of internet presence. It's so easy to get like wrapped up in your own head and do a lot of like rubbernecking, and trying to keep up with the Joneses and like, Oh, you know, like I've, I'm not at look at so and so they're, they're doing this, they must be doing something different than me that's better than I need to, why am I not there. And there's a lot of ways to get inside your own head and like just kind of get down. And you know, as much as like what like I just said a minute ago, like the that little bit of friendly competition of like, you know, iron sharpens iron kind of thing is great. It's also like important to kind of just know who you are. And know that like sometimes, you know, you can go through phases you can go through, you shouldn't be like just necessarily thinking, you know, what did I do today? Oh, today was an unproductive day. I wasted it. You know what I mean?
Kären McCormick 28:56
Absolutely, absolutely. I'm glad you bring up the social media aspect, because it's definitely an interesting thing. How social media for artists and for creatives is a wonderful thing. Because you can reach people in a way that previously you really had to have a label or, you know, a large management company to reach but now, because of things like Spotify and Apple Music, you know, you can not only put out a song on your own terms on your own record, but then you can also reach as many people as possible. But then there is that flipside of Hmm. Well, you know, so and so accomplish this. How do I make sure that I'm doing what I can to accomplish that. But then you also do you're right, you have to know who you are. And you have to remember and keep focus on everybody's path is going to look different. Even if the goal is very similar or the same, everybody's path there will look different. And that's something that I've definitely been navigating the last couple of years as well especially living in Nashville. Figuring out not only who I am as an artist, but figuring out who I am as a person to make sure that I don't kind of fall in the trap of comparison, because it's very easy to do.
Thomas Mooney 30:12
Yeah, it's like, as great as the smartphone is, it's, if I'm trying to do something, I have to like, go put it in another room or something, because the temptation is just too great to just start scrolling on Instagram or on Twitter, or what have you. And just, then all of a sudden, you've like, wasted 30 minutes, and then you're like, well, I don't know. And there's also something to the effect of people don't like post all the bad shit on social media.
Kären McCormick 30:43
That's very true.
Thomas Mooney 30:45
Very much like the, they're not posting their entire lives. So one thing I wanted to talk to you about is, so I guess when Taylor Swift first started writing music and started becoming a big star, you could see that effect, in some ways of her being, you know, a late teenager, early 20 year old kid, female writing songs, first person experience, right there in like the, in the now you could see some of that influence and that inspiration, I guess, coming from her in the moment, but I think it's way more apparent. I guess, what, 1015 years now, since those first records of hers came out. And you're seeing it in these waves of a lot of young women songwriters who are writing from these first person perspectives, and blending in storytelling and a lot of like, young. I want to say like, yeah, like college age issues, and you know, that young love and figuring out love and lust and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, I feel like when I first heard heard you, like, you could feel that one of the main reasons or not necessarily one of the main reasons, but like, one of the reasons why you became an artist is because of someone like Taylor Swift being there before you. Is that true? And if so, like, I guess like, How important do you feel Taylor was for a lot of up and coming songwriters right now in country?
Kären McCormick 32:27
That's a great question. And I'm glad you asked it, because I definitely do reference Taylor a lot. When people ask me, how did you get started? And how did you start with country music and things like that. And Taylor definitely played an instrumental role in that and definitely played a role in the style of songwriting that I do as well, very much like you mentioned, you know, when I, before music, I was writing, like in a journal, I was very young, I was like, nine or 10 years old, and my dad had gotten me a journal. So I would write little stories, or I would write about my day or things like that. And then separate from writing. I was also in the Children's Choir at church, because my dad had noticed that I like to sing around the house. But I had never thought about putting those two things together, both writing and singing. And I had come across a couple country artists because of my mom, you know, she had a free sell CDs, she had a Shania Twain CD. And I remember really liking that, and listening to the radio with my dad every now and then. And he would switch to the country station. But it really wasn't until he turned it on. And right then, and there, Taylor was singing a song about Tim McGraw. And something just connected for me. You know, she's the same age as my sister. And it just felt like an older sister was kind of talking to me. And I went and looked at her lyrics, and I went and listened to her songs. And it just felt like somebody was singing exactly what's coming out of your own head and your journal. And I very much was like, it feels like you have a friend who's around. And you can just turn on her music and, and just not feel alone. And that's what I was going to music and writing in the first place for him. So I started to ask my dad, you know, can you get me a guitar because if you get me a guitar, I'll start writing songs. And it took about a year and a half to convince him and he finally got me one and I wrote my first song, but that same day, and he was like, oh, okay, like you're serious about this. And then I was like, well, we have to go to Nashville now because Taylor went to Nashville. And he took me to Nashville the summer before my senior year of high school, and I knew that I was gonna end up in Nashville someday. I just didn't know how. And now you know, every time I have a show, I make sure that I sing Taylor Swift song because I really do believe that there's just so much influence there and so much inspiration there. And now, you know, over the span of her decade, 15, long year career. Now you can look at her and say, Well, now she's a businesswoman. And that's the other thing that I looked to her now, it's kind of like, a different type of inspiration. Because she has managed to shift her career into a business. And she speaks about the importance of owning your art and things like that. And so it's just, it's a very impressive career. And you're right. I mean, I definitely believe that she has played an influence. And many of the female artists that you hear today, especially those who are on the up and up, absolutely,
Thomas Mooney 35:53
yeah, it's, I guarantee you like, right after she released that self titled, there was just, you know, every Guitar Center across America was like, selling guitars to, you know, 15 year old girls. So, yeah, it's, I feel like that's, you point out your you point out the, her now. I think like, a lot of people really write Taylor off. And they kind of dismiss her as like, Oh, you know, she's just singing songs about young love, or, you know, for lack of a better term songs that are for like teenagers. And that couldn't be further from the truth. Like, I think people if they realized, no, like Taylor's like, over 30 now, you know, she's a woman. And she's singing, like, for example, like the last few records she's put out, she's talked about, she's matured and evolved. And I feel like any great artist does that. They're not necessarily just doing that one trick that they did a long time ago, just because that was popular then. And I think like, if people listen to her, now, like, they would realize that like, she is still like a great artist, and she's evolved and morphed and changed and kind of done it all on her own terms.
Kären McCormick 37:14
Absolutely, I think it's interesting. I watched the documentary that she had on Netflix, and she said, a comment about being a female in the music industry, how you feel like you have to constantly reinvent yourself. And I think that it's interesting, because that's something that she's definitely done successfully through each album cycle. But then at the core of everything that she does, she's very much still very true to herself. And she's very much just a storyteller. She's an incredible songwriter. And that's just something that I'm fascinated by both as a fan and also, as an artist, it's just incredible to be able to kind of either, whether it's changing your sound, or whether it's changing your brand, but still at the core, Be true to who you are. That's, I think, something that's very, incredibly difficult to achieve. Because in an industry where people will try to change you and try to say, well, maybe it's better if you do this, or maybe we should do that, to stick to your guns and really say, Hey, this is what I want to say, this is what I want to do. And then on top of that, be public about it and not be afraid to, to comment on that I think is really impressive. And you're right, I definitely do think that a lot of people write that kind of stuff off from her because they've still kind of attribute her to the beginning of her career and think, Oh, she only write songs about relationships or failed relationships and things like that. But even today, the songs that she writes about even if they aren't
Thomas Mooney 38:45
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Kären McCormick 39:53
I would have to say probably fearless. It definitely salute To find me as a Taylor Swift Fan, and I just remember being so excited when it came out and like reading the lyric booklet and things like that. But 1989 is also an incredible pop album. I think that that's just as close to perfection as you could get. I'll be bold and say that. And I also recently have been listening to folklore of course. And I feel like every time I listen to folklore, I have a new favorite song from it, which I think is really interesting as a listener, because I feel like I catch things that maybe I didn't catch the first time that I listened all the way through. So yeah, I think those are my Those are my favorites right now.
Thomas Mooney 40:42
Yeah, like the thing about folklore is the some of my friends that I've talked to about it, I we've done that we always kind of do like, what's like your favorite three off the album's. And usually like, we're kind of like, a we both like two or three, or whatever the case is, on vocals, or like we were my favorite three were like, so different from everyone else's, and theirs were different from everyone else's. And now part of that is because like, I think like the records like 14 songs long, but it's interesting that there's so much to dive into, on that record, as far as like just kind of figuring out what like what you like out of it. Because Is this really a great record?
Kären McCormick 41:30
Absolutely. When I had the conversation with my friends, I think the exact same thing happened. I was like, these are my top three. We all can agree that like, exile is awesome. But these are like my top three like go to, and yet we have the exact same experience.
Thomas Mooney 41:49
Yeah, like I think what I liked a whole lot at the very beginning, I really liked that song mirrorball. And I liked there's one song in particular that I don't think is getting enough love. And that's epiphany, like epiphany has a few lines on it that I wish he would have done it, the singing style a little bit more on it. But maybe just because he the way she inflex a few lines on it. Maybe that's why I like it so much. And maybe if she did it a whole bunch, it would not be as great but what is like your, your go to at that moment. off that record.
Kären McCormick 42:29
I recently really started to enjoy peace. And August has always been one of my favorites because it kind of reminds me of like early Taylor combined with new Taylor, which is like even the lyric style of August reminds me a lot of Taylor's like country days, and I really liked that one. And I also really like my tears ricochet. I think her vocals on that one are just really really pretty. But it's such a great album for the times that we're living in, is I had it in the background the other day, and it's like, very calming. And she just she sounds great on it. And there's so many lyrics that just like stick out and are so great. So it's a great record.
Thomas Mooney 43:16
Yeah, you know what I think like the magic of it, too is so like, obviously the people she's worked with on it like Boney bear and like, I can't remember what brother it is from the National. But like I love those bands, when I was a lot younger. And it's strange because I also don't like I hate though the the narrative of like, people loving Taylor Swift just because of the the men involved. Because like that happened a whole lot with 89 two with Ryan Adams his version. But what I will say is like, I know a lot of dads who have like, girls from like, the age of like five to 10 who absolutely love this record, and it's like the perfect compromise between dads and and their their kids. So that's another added bonus.
Kären McCormick 44:03
That's so true. That is so true.
Thomas Mooney 44:08
You know, I saw that you you've obviously mentioned some 90s country stuff too, as being paramount in your early influences and stuff like that people like shanaya Twain and you mentioned Faith Hill. What other people have you gone back and just kind of realized, Holy Holy shit, this is like the pinnacle of pop music or pop country.
Kären McCormick 44:35
Oh, well they definitely are up there. Absolutely. Um, I also really love Brooks and Dunn. And I remember my mom had a bricks and done record and she loved the song by Maria she liked would not stop singing around the house and now being 24 I had like gone back over the past few years and like really deep dived into some of the discography. And I really enjoy their music. Obviously, Garth Brooks is up there. I mean, how can you not be? But I just feel like what makes 90s country so great is it really is that perfect blend of pop country. And I know that we talk about a lot in country music, like, what is country? What is not country these days, and there's a big conversation about that. And for me, country, music is just storytelling, you know, the standards and the three chords and the truth, saying, and I really feel like 90s country, I think what makes it so great is it really had the ability to reach a mass audience. You know, my mom is an immigrant from the Republic of Congo. And here she is singing a Brooks and Dunn saw English as a second language, and she's just over you're having the time of her life. I think that that's what made it explode like that Is it just reached such a mass audience because it had the storytelling elements that have been amazing production. And I think that to me, that's really what I want to do with my music is just reach as many people as possible with not only the storytelling, but also the production as well. I think that's something that Carly Pierce and Luke combs. If we're talking about more, today's artists are doing a fantastic job of they definitely kind of bring that reminisce as nostalgia. production in my mind. But yeah, yeah, 90s countries. So best for sure.
Thomas Mooney 46:39
Yeah. Like I. So I, like I'm, I grew up basically the entire time in the 90s as a kid, so I'm, I have like a lot of nostalgia for 90s country. And I probably didn't appreciate it as much growing up. But it is kind of like the perfect, it hit this perfect moment in history of the production, like you said, like, going both forward and tying back to the past. And then also, like, you know, you're talking about like, just the explosion, this music reaching your mother, the invention of the CD, or like the popular, popular, like popularizing CD in that format, really played like a key to being able to, like reach all corners of the earth.
Kären McCormick 47:32
Absolutely. And it's crazy to think about how that really wasn't that long ago. Because things have changed so much and how we consume music. But I mean, I remember going from having my little portable CD player to downloading songs onto my iPod. And, you know, now I can listen to any song I want at the touch of my fingertips. But I, I definitely agree. I mean, at one of my favorite things, as a kid was literally like, the day before, an album was going to drop, like getting all excited. And then the day of going to the store with my dad, and like buying the record, opening up the booklet and like looking at the songwriting credits and like looking at the lyrics and things like that. And I think that for me, as a songwriter, and as an artist, and back then as somebody that just enjoyed the songwriting so much, I knew that country artists especially would put so much thought into things like that. That's something that Taylor does especially well is okay, somebody is going to open this record, or I'm sorry, CD, and say, and pay attention to this tiny little detail of me putting the Songwriters right here at the top, or me, you know, lifting the lyrics in a certain way. And that was always something that really intrigued me, especially about country artists.
Thomas Mooney 48:59
Yeah, like, I've talked about this with a lot of friends is the gentleman buying the CD or finding the album, it wasn't like an event. And then also, like, you know, if you didn't like it as much as you thought, you're going to be kind of like, too bad. Like, you're stuck with the CD, and you're going to learn to love those songs. So right, like now, it's so easy to be like, oh, whoever released a new album, you put it on Spotify, and then you're kind of like, okay, and you don't have to listen to it again, if you don't like it. And for lack of a like, that's, there's some goodness in that and then there's also just kind of the the moment aspect of of going and getting a record going and getting a CD is is kind of lost. I mean, I guess there's still pockets of it. You're still able to do it if you want. But everyone used to have to do that. So I don't know i'm i'm getting super nostalgic about all that right now.
Kären McCormick 50:00
But I remember when Lior growing up, my dad would have a rule of, I have to like three songs before I buy the album for that exact reason. And that really kind of still holds true today. The nice thing though, is he can test run it, you know, on Spotify, like you're saying, but he still buys CDs. And so he'll like, listen through it on Spotify. And then if three really stands out to him, he'll go and order the CD or buy the CD. But I it's so funny, because you're so right, like, you would just be stuck with it, you'd be like, well, Oh, well. But yeah, that's definitely something that I really missed out about as well. And that's something that, you know, I'm, I'm excited because I am going to get CDs printed of my EP and just have that moment for myself of holding my own CD. And that's something I'm really excited to do.
Thomas Mooney 50:57
Yeah, yeah, it's, there's, I always say like, there is something, again, it's special to have the CD, the the physical form, and obviously, vinyl as well, or just merchant General, because there's, you it's bigger, it's you can't really necessarily see those liner notes. And it's not you lose the translation of a quote, unquote, digital liner notes or whatever. And it's just a little bit more special. And it I feel like all those songs, they just being touching the the liner notes, and the album cover and the CD, while you're listening to it. Like, for some reason, your brain connects things better, and like you just have more memories around the song. So yeah,
Kären McCormick 51:48
definitely, I think, for me, as a listener, it kind of takes it from being just a song that I listened to, to, oh, this is art, like this is truly an a project that somebody will multiple people put, you know, their hard work into, and really created something from nothing. And now you get to hold this tangible piece of art and listen to it at the same time. And it's, I think, one of my favorite experiences is, you know, opening a CD for the first time and listening to it for the first time. There's just something special about that.
Thomas Mooney 52:27
Yeah, yeah. You mentioned your mother being from the Congo, or what is officially bad with names.
Kären McCormick 52:36
Yeah, it's the Republic of Congo. I like to say the full name because there's actually two Congos neighbor each other in Africa. One is the Democratic Republic of Congo. And the other is the Republic of Congo.
Thomas Mooney 52:50
Yeah, I knew if I didn't write that down, I was gonna mess it up. And I did. But I guess I was reading like, your mother's from there. And your your father was in the Peace Corps, and they met, right.
Kären McCormick 53:02
That is right. My dad is a good old Minnesota boy. And he went into the Peace Corps, and met my mom while he was there. And then they had me and then she immigrated here to the US, became a citizen in 2004. So I was born there. And I have been fortunate enough to go back and visit. But I really spent most of my time in Cameroon, because my dad actually went back to Africa, to do his PhD research. So more of my memories from Africa are actually from Cameroon. But yeah,
Thomas Mooney 53:46
how much of like that? Because obviously, you know, having these two, I don't want to say polar opposite cultures are cultures, but obviously, different Heritage's. How was it I guess, like blending these two for you, and, and growing up with both, you know, different kinds of traditions and different cultural norms and all that kind of stuff?
Kären McCormick 54:15
I mean, you can say that for office. I mean, musically, I think the wonderful thing about having two parents from such different cultures is it definitely kept me open minded. And I definitely started to catch on to that, as I became a teenager was like, I mean, I will listen to anything from Maroon five to Brenda Fauci, who's an African pop artists, to Taylor Swift to Katy Perry, whatever anything in between, because they both just listened to such different things. And so it kind of opened my eyes to all these different genres and all these different musical styles. And then I think, as an artist, and just as a person in general, having two parents with such different cultures, just, it really kind of translates in the same way, you just become so much more open to things because you experience such different things within your own household. I definitely think that one of the biggest differences from moving to Washington, from Washington to Tennessee was okay, things are a little bit different here, we think a little bit differently in terms of politics, or even everyday life is a little bit different than here in Washington. And I think having two parents who just embrace differences, it means that then I was brought up to embrace differences and just look at everything with an open mind. So I'm very, very much appreciative of that. Because I know that there are a lot of people in our country who, you know, you're born in a small town, and you're raised in a small town, and then you raise your family in the same town, and maybe never leave. And so then when you do come across somebody who's different, or maybe listens to different music than you, or things like that, it's gonna be a little bit harder to be open to that kind of change. And so, it has definitely played a role, not only in how I approach things artistically and musically, but just in everyday life. And I definitely view it as a blessing. And it's, it's always interesting, because like, I'm here in Washington now with my parents. And it's an interesting dynamic, because even mid sentence, you know, when my parents will start speaking French, and it's just like, constant, you know, like, one thing, one way one thing is the other way one speaks this language and the other will respond to the language. But I think that it's it keeps things interesting. I think it's an interesting part of my story. And it's so funny, because one of the biggest things that people kind of talk about when I talk to them is they're like, Wait a second, you, you were born in Africa, and you sing country music, like how did that even come together? And a lot of people think that it's like, specifically to my dad, because he was born in the US and raised in the US. But ironically, when I think back on how I first started listening to country, it was very much because of my mom, listening to those records that I told you about earlier. So that just goes to show that the power of music and the lengths that music can, can touch and reach. But it's always a little bit interesting around the house for sure.
Thomas Mooney 57:51
Yeah, like I, it's See, I don't know, it's so I'm half Mexican, and I'm half white, but it's so much. There's a lot of differences in those two cultures. But it's also one of those things where, at the end of the day, Mexico is like, right next door. So it's not, it can't be that different. And I just, I imagine it can be so different just because, you know, you have you obviously you have family on another continent so far away, and you have so many ties there and then plus ties here and plus ties, wherever you know what I mean. So it's you talking about like, the whole, like, different languages being taught spoken mid sentence and breaking and blending all those things together. I find it so fun and interesting. And like that's, I think, like, again, like it's very easy for people to be tribal in like, well, this is different. These people are different for me, so I don't know anything about them so that they they're why we have to come together like you know what I mean? But whenever someone's I guess what I'm going is like when when you meet someone who does come from a diverse background, it humanizes the the situation for a lot of people and it makes it more real because you're obviously a real person and like they can talk with you and not just you but like just in general you given them saying I felt like I'm rambling here. But
Kären McCormick 59:30
definitely, that's something that has been kind of at the front of my mind. Recently with recent events and everything happening in our country. It's like, at the end of the day, for me what's important and how I feel that I can contribute, I guess with my experience is just having conversations with people and having those conversations with people who grew up different for me and even present day Have a different life than I do. Because you're exactly right, it's very easy to shut somebody off over the internet or within your own home, if you don't know somebody that doesn't look like you or grew up different from you, but if you sit down and just have a conversation with somebody and say, This is my experience, and then they say, this is my experience, just having that understanding of we have different experiences, goes a long way. And I feel like that's something that I more recently have understood as kind of responsibility maybe isn't the right word. But I guess opportunity is the right word. As a biracial country artists, you know, just recognizing that, you know, there, there's definitely a place for people who look like me, there's a place for people who look like me who want to listen to people who look like me, and just recognize that and just being open for me to talk about it. Because I think previously, I was like, Oh, no, I shouldn't talk about it. That might be you know, one way or the other. But now, I do think that it's been opportunity. And I think it's something that I definitely now take pride in and can be proud of, you know, having the background that I do, and just recognizing that it's something that makes me different and different is okay, good friend is good. A lot of the time.
Thomas Mooney 1:01:33
Yeah, yeah. Like, I like you saying like opportunity, because like this is not just an opportunity for you to talk about it, but a great opportunity for a lot of people to learn. And I think like, again, like people, when you when you're around people from different varying backgrounds, you realize that like, we're all like, 90%, the same? And then like that 10% or whatever, is like, great to celebrate those differences. And yeah, I don't know, I think it's, it's a great thing. And you are right, like it is weird. So much of country music, we we talk about tradition, like so much of it is rooted into in tradition, right. And a lot of great traditional things are celebrated, and they should be celebrated. But also at the same time. It makes it where there's like these really staunch gatekeepers and who try and like make it like this is only what country is and it's not for people who are different other if you're not like a white male singing, and yeah, I don't know, I feel like right now, like we're in a really progressive time, especially for country artists, where we're getting a lot more various ethnicities, being a little more open and accepted, various people who are on the different if they're if they're gay, or bi, or what have you. And obviously, getting more female songwriters accepted, I hate to say accepted, but like, because there's, there's still a lot of people who are trying to like, push people away. But I feel like we there's a nice open conversation right now.
Kären McCormick 1:03:26
100% I even think the progress made in the last few months, has been really encouraging, compared to the last few years. And while there may not be too much progress to see like this historically, or, you know, we don't have a but at least having open conversations about it and having a dialogue around it. that progress is huge. And I think it's important, as an as a country artist, to say if what country music prides itself on is storytelling and talking about real life. And talking about, you know, this is my truth, we have to recognize that everybody's story is different, which means we can't possibly have just one style, one look for country and expect that to appeal to every fan of contrary, we need people who are black to tell their stories, because we're going to have black listeners, but we're also going to have whitelist winners who can relate to those stories as well like, and we're going to have people who are gay country artists who are going to have an audience as well. We can't just possibly pigeonhole it in just one format and one artist and one look and one brand and expect that to be enough because I remember Previously thinking, oh man, am I country enough in terms of I did not grow up, you know, blue collar I did not grow up on a farm, I did not grow up what I think to be the way of country music does that mean then that I, you know, I'm not allowed to do it and I'm not allowed to connect with it. But that's not true, you just have to find the person who's telling the stories that you can really connect with. And then that doesn't mean that you don't appreciate the other stories, because it's still music at the end of the day, and you can still appreciate it and enjoy it. But in terms of if you're searching for, I'm really looking for a specific story, I'm really looking for somebody who, you know, kind of makes me feel like I'm represented, or I'm looking for somebody who makes me feel like I'm not alone, you are going to need somebody who's telling your story. And that that can't just possibly be just one thing. And I do think that once we really start to make, you know, ground on that and recognize that, then I really think that it'll just be a beautiful, beautiful thing. To have a diverse audience to have diverse performers and headliners and diverse voices on the radio, I think it will be a beautiful thing. And I'm optimistic that it will get there.
Thomas Mooney 1:06:25
Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, it's, I feel like a lot of people for some reason, they think of this as like a pie and like their pie piece is going to get smaller or something. And it's not, that's not the analogy whatsoever. Like your story does not discredit mine, you know, if I was an artist, but you know what I'm saying like that, there's that's the wrong way of looking at it. And yeah, again, if you like great storytelling, you should be like letting every great storyteller in. So
Kären McCormick 1:07:01
definitely. And it's interesting, because I don't really see it as like that in other formats. You know, it's interesting, because when you listen to pop radio, you can have anything from Ed Sheeran to Adele to I mean, name an artist, and you're probably there, but none of them sound the exact same. And I think that's something that's really interesting. and country music is the women who breaks through, they really don't sound similar at all. I mean, Kacey musgraves, doesn't sound anything like Carrie Underwood. And Carrie doesn't sound anything like Kelsey ballerini. And that's something that I think the women especially are so great at doing is when they do break, they know exactly who they are. They have their specific sound. And it connects and it works. And it's, for me, in my opinion, I'm like, you have the blueprint here. We know that there is an audience for females. And there's going to be an audience for people of color and country. And when we see that in other formats, it works that you can have somebody like Harry Styles at the top of the charts in one week, and then you can have cardi B at the top of the charts. The next there is there's something for everybody. And if we're going to continue to have gatekeepers, like you said, I just hope that eventually, those gatekeepers will see that there is beauty and diversity, and there's beauty and diverse voices.
Thomas Mooney 1:08:33
Yeah, you know, the, one of the main reasons why a lot of these great women songwriters and artists have broken is simply because in my opinion, like they're just better songwriters than a lot of the and they're writing about more diverse things than like your prototypical male songwriter in country music. It's not just you know, tailgates and beer ads, a lot of women songwriters are, I don't know if they're not interested. But like, it's that doesn't, you know, it's not anything for them to write 15 of those songs, you know, there's a lot more diversity in what they're writing about, and a lot more genuine, realness. And I do think it is telling, like you said, you mentioned all these, you know, female songwriters, they've kind of traversed and like, gotten bigger than country music. You know what I mean? And I think there's a reason for that. And it's because of that genuineness in their in their voices.
Kären McCormick 1:09:38
Oh, definitely, definitely it. For me, it gives me encouragement, because, I mean, when I look at somebody like Casey, who's definitely one of my big inspirations, who doesn't get radio play on the country format, like pretty much at all, but I went and saw her perform on her last tour. For a sold out crowd at Bridgestone Arena, and for me that just shows like when the music connects, the people will be there, the people will listen. And if you know one format doesn't support it or isn't behind it, that doesn't mean that you should stop there because the right audience will find it and will support it. And I think that you're right, there's definitely a sense of genuine songwriting genuine concept, you know, what's behind the songwriting? And you're right, they're real stories, because they aren't singing all about the exact same thing. Which we do kind of see a lot of, in country music sometimes which you're right. It's the tailgates and beers conversation. So when there is something different here, I think a lot of listeners are like, Wait a second, what is that? And you're right, they do break. I mean, shanaya is the, you know, the example of female breaking beyond country music. Taylor is a great example of that. And it's, it's for me, it's fascinating, because it's like, how is it that females go from it being an incredibly uphill battle, to just get radio play to once they get there? They go beyond just Country radio, and they can, you know, have international tours and, you know, other business endeavors and things like that, I think it's really fascinating.
Thomas Mooney 1:11:35
Yeah, and one of the big keys for all three of those that you just named. All those songs are like written by them. So that should be something too is like they're, they're not just performers. And they're not just really great singers or vocalists, or they're they don't just have a great image, or they all have like, I think of the was first, not necessarily Shania Twain's first record, because it's, a lot of people don't consider her first first record or whatever. But like her two big massive records in the 90s. I think, like, have those songs. There's only like, one that she doesn't have a songwriting credit on. So like, that's the blueprint right there. These, her she and I are like shanaya Taylor, and you mentioned Casey, they write like all their songs. And that's, to me, that tells me that people want to hear their voices as storytellers.
Kären McCormick 1:12:29
100% 100%.
Thomas Mooney 1:12:34
So yeah, you know, it's been really, really great talking with you today about all this. I really enjoyed this conversation.
Kären McCormick 1:12:42
I'm so glad it was great talking with you as well. It's, it's nice to kind of like nerd out a little bit. Some of the stuff and country music, so I really appreciate that. Alright, that's
Thomas Mooney 1:12:53
it for this episode of new slang. Thanks again to Carson for the great conversation. Her debut EP titled retro is out this Friday. That's September 25. Go check out desert door and the blue light live, check out the Patreon become a Patreon. All That Jazz. Okay, I'll see y'all next week.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai