116: Karen Jonas

I'm joined by singer-songwriter Karen Jonas for Episode 116. Jonas just recently released The Southwest Sky and Other Dreams this past Friday (August 28). As the title alludes, 10 songs of The Southwest Sky are character-driven vignettes largely inspired by the vast landscapes, small Interstate towns, and hardened individuals who claim the land as their home. Songs such as "Farmer John," "Pink Leather Boots," and the opening "The Last Cowboy (at the Bowling Alley)" feel like snapshot stories. Jonas lets her imagination run wild as she's counting up the mile marker signs, letting these robust characters come to life with engaging storytelling and encounters. Anyone who has been bored on a long trek of highway knows, a strange billboard, abandoned building, or roadside stops can set your mind to wander as you try and fill in background settings. Jonas very much does the same as she leads you through this traveling album.

During this interview, Jonas and I discuss the songs and stories that make up The Southwest Sky and Other Dreams, knowing when inspiration hits, our mutual love of coffee, Bob Dylan, reading, & daydreaming, releasing an album in the midst of a pandemic (and adapting to our current situation), finding space and time to let songs and stories come to life, and how she's grown and evolved as an artist.

This episode's presenting partner is Desert Door Texas Sotol and The Blue Light Live.

Interview Transcript

Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.

Thomas Mooney 0:02

Everyone, welcome to another episode of new slang. This is 116 to be exact. I'm your host music journalist Thomas Mooney. We're kicking off the week with singer songwriter Karen Jonas. As I mentioned last week, Karen's new album, the Southwest guy and other dreams was part of that monster album release day this past Friday. These past four episodes have been with for artists to all released albums on August 28, culture wall, Zephaniah o hora, Justin wells, and now Karen Jonas, I would highly encourage you to check out those three conversations. As the title alludes songs on Karen's new album, the Southwest guy and other dreams are really tied to the American Southwest, those arid desert wasteland, the foothills of the Rockies, and those pockets of people that are hooked up next to interstate 10, or who are holed up in their own little bubble of life kind of cut off from the rest of the world. And then of course, there is this Daydream quality to the storytelling here as well. Whether that's her having these really vivid and bold snapshots of a person or a place, and then kind of letting her imagination run wild from there filling all the gaps in or in some cases, I think there's the daydreaming quality that is tied to the characters themselves. They're the ones daydreaming, that's especially the case with a song like pink leather boots. Our protagonist is the one daydreaming within this dream world. There's some song conception happening right there in those kind of moments. That's really cool. I really enjoyed speaking with Karen on this one, because we didn't just talk about the specifics of this album, The writing and the artistic process of these specific songs. But we also spoke about trying to find that place, and how do you get there, trying to find that space to just think and explore the caverns of your own mind. And of course, that's a giant aspect of any artistic venture. But I think it's really an integral part of this album, and Karen's perspective as a storyteller, and a songwriter in general. Today's presenting sponsor is desert door, Texas SoTL. If you know anything about me, it's probably that I'm from the heart of West Texas, and absolutely love everything about West Texas. And that's really why I love desert door so much. You may be asking yourself what exactly salto is, well, it's a premium spirit that's similar to a tequila or a Moscow, but for my money, it's a little bit more refined and smooth. There's a sweetness and faint hints of vanilla and citrus and it's also as versatile as your garden variety vodka. At its core desert door is authentically West Texas, they go out and harvest Soto plants from the wild and bring them back to their distillery over in driftwood, Texas. So next time you're at your local liquor store, get a bottle of desert door. For more info, check this episode's show notes. If this is your first time listening to new slang, I strongly suggest hitting that subscribe link. If you just did, I'm giving you a virtual High Five right now. New slang is over on iTunes, Spotify, Google podcast, Stitcher, radio, and basically any and everywhere you listen to podcasts, go check out the Newsline merch store, grab a koozies and stickers, buttons and magnets. Any bit helps, I'll throw a link into the show notes. And if you're into playlists, go check out Tom Rooney's cup of coffee and the neon Eon playlist over on Spotify. The neon Neon is for all your nostalgic 90s country needs, which there's going to be more neon Eon related stuff coming your way pretty soon. And then Tom Rooney's cup of coffee is a regularly updated mix of new Americana and country music. It's also really great Hannah, who I have coming up on the podcast. So yeah, go follow those. Okay, I think that about does it for this. Let's get on to the interview. Here is Karen Jonas.

Yeah, so you have this record coming out at the end of August. And I know like you, you know, you're character driven in general in your writing. But this record right here feels very specific to a certain, I guess, cast of characters in these vignette kind of ways. And they all kind of have that obviously the title, Southwest sky and other dreams. So they all kind of have that relation back to the southwest. At what point did you start like kind of figuring that was a theme?

Karen Jonas 4:53

You know, I love it as a theme and it's a really good question. It's hard to pinpoint the moment when I collected enough songs to decide that this is what the record was going to be about. I do, I do love a thematic concept. You know, I feel like concept album sounds very fancy but, but just to have these themes that run through a record to me so important to make it a story, the whole record needs to be a story to not just each song. So, you know, I feel like I had, I had a couple of adventures in the southwest myself. And so it started creeping into some songs that I had. And then I just began to see it as the place where these other characters would also live as, as I started collecting, it's sort of piled upon itself.

Thomas Mooney 5:52

Yeah, I'm sure like, most of most of these adventures, they're all are related to touring, getting out and on the road. And if you're in an area for a couple of months, or a month, or what, a couple of weeks, even you, you can, I don't know, for some reason you you end up like having strange stories are strange. People are just interesting people come across your path. And then, you know, as, as you start getting those people collected in your mind, you kind of go, Oh, well, these are these all kind of relate in a strange way? Is that kind of what you were thinking as far as, like, any of the anything that you've written before?

Karen Jonas 6:35

Definitely, you know, I, one of the songs on the record is is called pink leather boots. And I just jotted it down in a notebook somewhere heading toward West Texas, from from Austin, and I kind of forgot about it, but I was I was going through my notebooks and I found just it said, pink leather boots and maybe some some little star with a with a little note. And and I thought back to you know, why? Why I had written that when I was there, you know, it was we're driving through, you just get this little snapshot of, of a place without without digging too far. And sometimes you can pick up the best things that way, you know, with people their boots, I saw some sign and it said, dancing girls, and I thought Who the heck lives here? Who goes here? Like who dances here? Why are these people you know, what is their life like? And for me, that was enough to, to write this whole story about this trucker that drives through a town and stops in and watches some girl falls madly in love, and then drives away and that that's it, you know, so you just get these little ghosts that, that pop up when you're driving around somewhere that you don't live even when you do.

Thomas Mooney 7:49

Yeah, like it always feels like. So I used to travel a lot with my dad driving around, and I'm from, you know, small town, West Texas. And, you know, you see all these little signs on the road. And this is obviously before we all had phones or anything like that. So, you know, if you're just sitting there and you're tired of reading what book you brought, or what are the cases, you just kind of create these little, why is that there? What is this? What is you know, that kind of stuff. And that's that song very much feels like the beginning of that. Just to kind of I guess for listeners are going to know when we did this, you just recently put out that music video for it. And that little music video is so funny and charming and catchy and just kind of perfect for that song. How did that

Karen Jonas 8:45

Thank you. Yeah, that that fellow's name that animated that Leo's name is Matt, Matt rash. And, you know, we had done a couple of videos for this record, actually. And we were we were talking to our our radio advisor person and he decided that was going to be the the radio song and we hadn't really expected for it to be a centerpiece of the record, really. So we thought well shoot, maybe we should make a video for it. And actually, actually making videos is has been sort of an exhausting process. So we had this idea that, you know, maybe we could make an animated video for, you know, claymation is always your first guest. That's harder. So animated is his second best. And I think it turned out really well for the song. I think it's so funny and quirky. What Matt was able to put together from the song. I was really happy with how that turned out. He didn't really ask me very much. You know, I sent him the song and I sent him a little list of ideas and he just kind of went to work on it and then he sent it to me when it was finished. So I love it. I think he did such a great job with the video.

Thomas Mooney 10:00

Yeah, and obviously, like the that baseline and that song is so catchy and infectious, and it plays with like, in the music video, it really plays with the, the animation as far as like the the eyebrows, and like everyone's mouth kind of moving in that little rhythm. And I don't know, like, it adds so much of this. I don't know, like, I don't know if I necessarily I would say fever dream, but there's a little bit of this like, weird kind of dream world aspect to it. And of course, like, you know, he passes out in the, in the music video too, but I don't know, I think like you just there's a pleasure really well with it.

Karen Jonas 10:45

Thank you. I think everybody is so twitchy in it, right? Everybody's got these little wiggles and jitters. Like even the clouds are twitchy.

Thomas Mooney 10:52

Yeah. twitchy. That's, that's a great. Describe it. Yeah. Yeah, like, what the, you mentioned, you know, you wrote that just like the pink leather boots down, was, what else did you add to it whenever you just jotted it down? Was there anything else? Or was it just like that, and as the the the jumpstart for the?

Karen Jonas 11:16

Yeah, I think that was the the jumpstart, I'm trying to remember if there was if the neon sign had pink leather boots on it, or what, but something must have made me think about that, in particular. And then and then the rest of it. I really wrote quite a bit later, when I was looking back and I was imagining this scene again. You know, when I, when I think about the way that I'm writing these things, you know, it's like, I go back and I imagine this scene and really, this whole record is about people imagining scenes. You know, the pink leather boots trucker spends the whole song, imagining this scene with this woman that he never really meets. So so it's sort of interesting that that's the circle that it is because it's it's me imagining these people imagining scenes. There's a lot of dreaming going on here.

Thomas Mooney 12:12

Yeah, like the, that's what I've always found really fascinating about songwriters, or the process of writing songs is just how long you stay with an idea. And like, how long do you let something marinate or think about it? Before you even really even pick up the pen or the gets hard to actually write about it? Do you typically kind of like want to try and create this world create help, I guess ground these characters in a way for you, before you even pick up the pen or guitar.

Karen Jonas 12:49

It really depends on the song. For me, there's, there's definitely some songs that I just sit down and I just want to get something out, you know, there's some especially some of the more emotional songs may be where, or I just want to emote and express something and I do that I think on on this record in particular, maybe, like barely breathing, or maybe you'd hear me then or songs that I probably just sat down and wrote sort of start to finish, mostly, you know, maybe with some editing later. But some of these stories, I think his story songs take a little longer to create this world that you don't live in already.

Thomas Mooney 13:34

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Because you kind of in an emotional song you want to, you know, capture that emotion before it leaves. And while like, I guess, if you're building a character or like the little aspects of a character, you know, you have to kind of think about how you make that person three dimensional.

Karen Jonas 14:01

Yeah, I try to never, I never write about a character of that i i can see them all in my mind. As as I have when I wrote them, they have a whole world that exists and there's details in that world that maybe aren't even they didn't make it in the song. But for me some writing about a story you need to be able to see this whole picture so that you can pick the details that you want to describe to people you get to pick the little bits that will maybe mean the most when you're telling a story.

Thomas Mooney 14:37

Yeah, like those those last verses or last lines. Those as a writer myself not as a songwriter but as a writer, writing articles about people in about songs and albums you always I feel or I try to like overwrite and then like there's these moments where you kind of go wow This is just getting too long. What do I cut? How do I make this into a more concise version? And, you know, sometimes you you sometimes as a, as a writer, you just have to cut some of your favorite parts or the parts that are maybe not necessarily as important to the story as they maybe are just to you as a writer. So yeah, like, I totally get the just trying to, I guess, you know, the clean it up, edit it.

Karen Jonas 15:33

Yeah, I think the overriding is a really important part of the process, almost. I mean, I think it helps you find your conclusions, you know, even if maybe you didn't know them when you started.

Thomas Mooney 15:45

Yeah, you know, you know, one of the things that I've, I've not really read too many screenplays, but what I've always loved about seeing a screenplay is the the character description, that just helps kind of, you know, kind of helps present what kind of person this is, or what kind of place this is the, the location, because that helps the people who end up like making the movie, find the right aspects. And sometimes like, it feels like song songs are like, the original version of a song is kind of like that. Getting all those details, right.

Karen Jonas 16:27

Definitely.

Thomas Mooney 16:28

What is like, on I don't know, even know if you have any examples of this offhand. But like, what is something that you've Do you have any lines or, or even just memories about a song where you're like, I had to cut this part out, because it just didn't work?

Karen Jonas 16:45

On this record, for sure. In farmer john, it's a story about a farmer's wife, Who determines that he might be cheating on her during the time it takes to boil a pot of tea. It's her thought process, sort of she's up in the morning, and, you know, going through her morning things and she puts a pot of tea on she says, you know, if you're not back before this tea boils in a big trouble. And you know, he doesn't come back, of course, but that song had about eight more verses. It was really long. I'm trying to think if I can remember any of the details, there was definitely a little more threatening, was a little more aggressive. In its original iteration. I cut some of that out and I let it be a little more ambiguous as to what happens and what he's doing and I made it a little more just about her in the scene that she's in and maybe we you know, let the listener decide for themselves. what he's doing and why.

Thomas Mooney 17:53

Yeah, I mean, you could have had that be I know you've covered some Dylan that could have been like your Desolation Row or something.

Karen Jonas 18:01

Oh my god, I love that song. It's so it's so long in wandering and I've covered Desolation Row in my guitar guitarist Tim he hates it. He thinks it's so long and so I used to play it as a just as like a soundcheck song and then he would like fix the sound and then just kind of wander away because there's so many verses, but yeah, I love Bob Dylan.

Thomas Mooney 18:28

I said who I like Desolation Row is I don't know if like it's, it feels since it is like 10 minutes long, and there's just really no chorus. But there's just like these just incredibly great, detailed descriptions of people and, and it just it's one of those like perfect songs. Like it's kind of like, I don't smoke cigarettes anymore. But it like to me that was always kind of like a cigarette song. Because like, you could just like sit there and take these drags off your cigarette. Yeah, listen throughout, I don't know,

Karen Jonas 19:04

it was a it was sort of a surreal moment. I was sitting outside of kind of a nice bar here in downtown Fredericksburg. It was maybe a year ago, and it was really late. And some potentially drunk guy was sort of weaving down the sidewalk. And he was singing one of the verses to Desolation Row that's what I decided to cover it like oh my god, I love that song. How random is it? That that this drunk guy knows the words to Desolation Row of all things. I wanted to go shake his hand, but I didn't. So was. That's what I decided to sit down and learn it.

Thomas Mooney 19:44

Yeah, well, I don't know. It could have been Bob himself. I don't even know if I would ever want to meet Bob Dylan.

Karen Jonas 19:54

I don't. I don't think I could handle it.

Thomas Mooney 19:57

Yeah. I know. There was a This is probably, I don't know, 667 years ago, Todd Snyder had written this essay about Bob Dylan about how if he had ever, you know, had the chance to meet Bob Dylan, he probably wouldn't, because he's such a giant fan. And then like in this in this essay, he has like, I don't know, probably about five or six different examples of his friends meeting Bob Dylan, Bob Dylan encounters, and like, they all were just like, too awkward or to, like, his friends were always just like, never, they never really handled the, the, the meeting, the occurrence, the encounter, as well as like, you would probably wish you would,

Karen Jonas 20:43

except for when you have to live with that, right? Yeah, no.

Thomas Mooney 20:48

Yeah, there was one actually that that? No, I think about it. That was like a perfect like, Oh, that is very, very smooth. And not going to just tell it because it's really great. But so one of his friends was like a musician. They were they had played a music festival in Europe, and like this festival was on an island. And like, the only way they for everyone to get back and forth on this island was this ferry. And like Bob Dylan had played the show, as well, or the festival as well. And there's only like one ferry I guess. And so artists and fans were all together on the on the same fairy that was going back and forth. And he's sitting there at this table. And he looks over and he sees Bob Dylan standing near the edge, and looking out into the water. And he notices people notice Bob Dylan slowly and a couple people come up and start asking them questions. And you know, for photos and stuff like that. You can just tell like, oh, man, Bob Dylan's probably not liking this, you know. And so he sitting at this table was this chessboard. And he said, Okay, I'm gonna just go up and tell him. Mr. Dillon, the chess table that you asked for? is ready. Mind you, like knowing like, there's a chance he goes, like, What the hell are you talking about? You know? So he goes over and does it. And Dylan comes and sits down at the table, and he plays chess silently for the rest of the ride. And people just kind of like didn't bother him. Because they thought like, maybe he was deep in thought playing this game of chess. And then like, they never even talked and like after he, they just kind of had the, you know, the head nod and like, went their own way. And that's like,

Karen Jonas 22:47

the Bob Dylan story you can have.

Thomas Mooney 22:51

Yeah, so.

Karen Jonas 22:55

Oh, wow. Yeah, that's quick thinking.

Thomas Mooney 22:57

I know, I don't know if I could, I would have been able to do that. Because I would have been too There would have been too much pressure thinking like he's going to say, What are you talking about? Like, you know, and you'd kind of make a fool of yourself, but it was a it's I don't know. It's just like a kind of perfect, perfect Dylan story. Do you have like a I know, this is cliche, but like, do you have like a favorite Dylan era?

Karen Jonas 23:28

I mean, I have. I love highway 61. revisited. And I love blood on the tracks. Most. Yeah, those are my my two favorite. I actually I actually yesterday, got like a Rolling Stone tattooed on my arm, so it's fresh. It's fresh and red right now. That's cool. Yeah, so there's my my fresh Bob Dylan tattoo. That's why I can't ever meet him. Because that would be embarrassing.

Thomas Mooney 24:00

Yeah. Just long sleeves forever. Just on the

Karen Jonas 24:05

butt like a Rolling Stone. I actually read because I want it to be very well informed about the song before I tattooed it on my arm was a song that Bob Dylan apparently wrote as like a six page essay first speaking of editing one's art. So he wrote the six page essay and then at some point, edit it down into what is still a fairly long song. Yeah, that's and that I also read that the Rolling Stone was more inspired by the Hank Williams Lost Highway than the Bible verse or any other Rolling Stone mentioned. So I liked that a lot about it too.

Thomas Mooney 24:48

Yeah. Are they dealing I mean, I say that like early Dylan, but because he just released that record earlier this year that has like, you know, these long epic songs as well, but early Dylan felt so much. Like he just had all this stuff to say and like just would fill up notebooks worth, you know, and, you know, editing down an essay to make a song is just kind of, I don't know if anyone does that other than Bob Dylan, you know,

Karen Jonas 25:19

other than I think maybe, you know, I love Leonard Cohen for the same reason. Feels like he has so much to say. But Bob Dylan's saying feels so much freer to me. I love Leonard Cohen for his measured tone. And I think that his self editing was a little more like banging his head into the wall, you know, to Bob Dylan just seems like he just just all comes out of them so easy. Maybe that's not true. Maybe that's just the impression that I get But

Thomas Mooney 25:51

no, I agree. I think like with, it's kind of like, like early Springsteen, where Dylan and Springsteen kind of had that same thing where it felt like they were always needing to cram as much they would sometimes cram so many words into a line or something. Where Cohen very much like every line is kind of just perfect. And I guess every

Karen Jonas 26:17

line is intentional, right? It's very careful.

Thomas Mooney 26:21

Yeah. I don't even know if like that's how to I guess that's like the poet in him is the knowing like just the all the not to say like the math behind it. But like kind of like the like that aspect of songwriting. Like just like that way that you're talking about?

Are you there?

Karen Jonas 26:46

I am, but I lost you for just a minute. At the end.

Thomas Mooney 26:49

I was just kind of saying how like, that's probably just like the poet in in Cohen is the just making sure every word is is is meaningful and is like is necessary. And let's just make it perfect every time.

Karen Jonas 27:07

I agree. Yes. And, and I love that about him. But I don't that's not how I love to write. Certainly I don't I think it's amazing the way that Leonard Cohen can do that. And it still sounds pretty pure and natural, but I I really have a distaste for like writing rhymey writing and like, you know, stuff that feels too measured to me, I think you can sacrifice meaning and instead get too focused on what do these two words rhyme and don't have the right number of syllables in this slide. And while this verse doesn't exactly match the verse before, and that's not okay. To me. I think that the song has to Trump all of that. Specific all those little details. I think that uh, you know, sometimes writers can get a little caught up in that in a way that makes the writing less free. Certainly.

Thomas Mooney 28:07

Yeah, like that's like the, I kind of think of songwriting there's a balance obviously to it. But a lot of times I think of songs kind of being those little snapshot snapshots of, of where that artist is at that point. And, or what they were feeling right at that moment. And sometimes if you over edit and try and make it so perfect, you can sometimes I guess get away from like, whatever that was that initially made you sick. I wanted to talk to y'all one more time about our new partners that desert door and offer up a handful of my favorite ways to drink it. Do you a Mexican Coca Cola, have a couple of swigs. Then pour yourself some desert door oak aged in tossing a lime wedge or two. Or how about this, pour some desert door into a mug, top off the glass with some ginger beer, squeeze in a lime or for Are you ranch water drinkers out there, get you a topo Chico, take a couple of polls off, and then pour in some desert door. Toss in a couple of lime wedges. And now you have a mighty tasty and refreshing ranch water. Remember, Soto is as versatile as vodka and has a more refined, smooth and a more complex palate than tequila. It's rich and balanced and and whatever your go to drink is it'll make it that much better. And again, it's inherently West Texas, it tastes like home. For more info on desert door, check our show notes.

Alright, that's it for Thomas Mooney, his cocktail minute. Let's get back to the show. Getting back to your record though. Like, again, all these songs are kind of in that Southwestern feel and that those like these little vignettes How long of a time span are the songs from? Like one? What's like the earliest song from the bunch?

Karen Jonas 30:10

The earliest and by far the outlier was fired john. That's a song that I wrote. Oh, jeez, it must have been right after I got divorced. And, but I know that I had lost my voice for a few months, which was horrible. And I wrote that song. And I couldn't sing when I wrote it. So it was probably in 2012, maybe, but most of them are from in the past year or two, that one had just been sort of hanging around, waiting to find its way on record. And it just hadn't yet. I think the rest of them I wrote really within the the past two years for sure.

Thomas Mooney 30:54

Yeah, um, how often do you do you have like, going back to that whole thing, where, you know, you mentioned during that song, you had all these extra verses? How often do you go back and take something from there? And it is kind of like the seed of of another song. Does that happen? Often? Wherever?

Karen Jonas 31:16

You mean, take something that was leftover and find it a hole?

Thomas Mooney 31:20

Exactly.

Karen Jonas 31:21

I don't think so. I think they just go away, you know, they're so connected to the story that they're in, I guess, you definitely have some thematic writing that I've done where the concept carries on. And you can look at one thing from a lot of different angles. And in some ways, I see this record that way, but I don't think any of them are direct descendants of each other like that. Yeah, they don't get each other's leftovers.

Thomas Mooney 31:55

Yeah, like I've always wondered about, like, how often you'll like songwriters will kind of like, scavenge over remnants of old songs kind of time, it seems like a good idea. But I just don't know if it's practical. I didn't everybody writes so differently. For sure. I'm

Karen Jonas 32:11

sure that somebody out there somewhere. That's their go to, you know, leftover lines swapped in and out. But somehow that just seems like more work actually not like less work?

Thomas Mooney 32:26

Do you? How do you write in in pen and paper? Or are you kind of have you gone on to being like a laptop writer or something?

Karen Jonas 32:35

I'm in transition. I was I've been a pen and paper believer, since forever. And I have piles of notebooks. And what I like about notebooks is that there's no distraction. You know, like having everything on our phones is just such a blessing and a curse, because you always have it. So if you think of something, you always have your place to write it down. But to stay focused on some creative spark with all of the distractions of you know, I like my little just, I just use the little Notes app on my iPhone. And I'm always, at this point, putting little notes in there, whether it's pink leather boots, or the last cowboy at the bowling alley was definitely a phone note that I wrote down some point. But it's hard to stay really, really focused, because you have to be as an artist, there's all of these not very artistic things that you got to be focused on with social medias and, you know, keeping track of all the emails involved with all of the people involved in the record and everything. And, you know, I love the idea of a space away from that, that's just this little protected notebook, and you've got your pen, and you get to just think into that notebook and it doesn't do anything else. So while I love that as an idea, and I'd like to do that I do write in my phone quite a bit.

Thomas Mooney 34:11

Yeah, like the, it's so easy to say, you know, we're going to turn the phone off or, you know, put it on airplane mode and put it away. And let's just write in a notebook or or IDE or wherever your spaces, but then it is like it's I don't know, for me, I always kind of even feel in the back of my mind. Like what if an emergency happens, I need to have the phone on. And then like, on the other side, if you are using the notes or using you know, even a laptop, you're constantly kind of getting notifications of social media email, where are the cases and you can just be distracting, you know, so

Karen Jonas 34:55

definitely, I mean, you can be off on some, you know, some vision Question of some sort, and you're off thinking about whatever it is you're trying to write about. And you're seeing a picture and you're writing something down. And then it's like, Oh, I got a text from somebody, oh, there's an email. Oh, my news just pinged me that some crazy thing happened in the universe. It's like, there's just too many, too many things there to be focused on something that's, you know, something that you're creating something that's not even real yet, is tenuous. Anyways.

Thomas Mooney 35:27

Yeah. Do you obviously, like you're a mother too? Is it? Is it hard to like? Not necessarily, like, you know, to tell the kids like, Hey, I'm writing songs or something like that. But that obviously, is a is I don't want to use the word distraction, but that that also can be a disruptor of writing, do you have a space and as far as time goes, or is that just one of those things where you have to work it in when it fits.

Karen Jonas 35:58

It is extremely difficult, actually, to find time and space to, to sit and just be because there's I have four kids between the ages of two and 11. And they're just there a lot through a lot of energy and a lot of sound. And, you know, there's just a lot of things that they need throughout the day. And you know, last year, I was really enjoying the the baby had just started preschool. And all of a sudden, I had two days a week where everyone was in school for three hours. And that was amazing. And I wrote a ton. Well, during those six hours a week when my house was was quiet. But this year, there's currently no school. So that is a struggle.

Thomas Mooney 37:00

Yeah, like that. Just, I've always kind of jokingly talked with my family. I don't have any kids and I'm not married. But like, when we mostly This is like always around holidays, when we're all kind of together. I'd always kind of jokingly tell them that you know, when the first time I watched the shining, I really didn't like jack is like a scary character. But like, when he starts talking about being interrupted, that is a very, like, real kind of frustration sometimes as far as like, you know, Hey, Mom, Dad, I'm in I'm trying to do something here. Can you please like to stop bothering me even? And of course I can the shining and Jackie does not handle it? Well, but there is a there's a little part of me that that relates to his frustration

Karen Jonas 37:54

of being that movie was so scary to me. I saw the movie and had to tell you I remember some woman in a bathtub. Was that a scene in that movie?

Thomas Mooney 38:04

Yeah, it was. And yeah, that's like the the strange weirdness creepy, Miss Oh,

Karen Jonas 38:10

yeah, that that movie scared the bejesus out of me. I still can't really walk by a bathtub without thinking about that lady. But But yes, there is some frustration, you know, as my kids are getting older. And then my oldest is almost 12. And she's very bright. And, you know, they don't believe you. Certainly half the time. You know, I told her that. I told her that I needed her to, I was going to go talk on the phone for an interview and that, you know, if she could help with her little brother until, you know, my mom was gonna come by and help today. So I'm like, I just need you to I'm gonna go downstairs and think for a few minutes before I get to this interview. And, you know, she knows I have this whole record coming up and everything. And she says, Well, why? Who are you interviewing? And I said, I'm not interviewing, you know, somebody who's going to interview me. And she says, For what? They said, Well, for the records, we for the record that's coming up and she said, Oh, I thought you meant like a job interview. And I thought that was really strange. She definitely does not think that, that what I do is particularly interesting, you know, so I have to I have to make some boundaries, like Well, I'm writing a song right now. And that's actually important to me in my work. So you guys need to go find something to work on. That's my that's my mom code for Get out of here. You need to find something to work on. So they know that that means that ideally they would clear out for a few minutes but with four of them it's you know, somebody is back within a few minutes. Yeah, anyways, but I do. I have I have to express to them that, that what I'm doing is important. And in some ways, that's good for me, because then I have to say to myself, hey, what you're doing is important. And it's worth whether I have to post eight things on my social media, whether I'm writing a song, or whether I'm working on all of these other pieces of this record release. You know, I get to say to myself, hey, this is important, sit down, and, and work on it and make this space to do it. But there's definitely a not enough space in the world in a house of six people. So it's a challenge, but it's one that I've managed till now and will continue to manage.

Thomas Mooney 40:42

Yeah, I think like some people, and I mean, no fault of their own. Because like, obviously, how often do people live with songwriters or riders in general or anything like that, but it's, it can be difficult to sometimes get back to whatever point it was that you were in the middle of, of, of what you were working on, you may have not even been typing or writing something down. You just sometimes you're just in thought. And sometimes you have to it's a process to get back to that moment, you're kind of, you know, it's work. That's the only way I can even say it.

Karen Jonas 41:20

It is I mean, I don't think you ever really get back if you're in the middle of a creative space, you know, you come back to somewhere else. And that place is generally a little frustrated. You know, a little bit, you know, geez, why am I interrupted at seven times when I'm trying to do one thing here? But maybe that's a comes out in song somehow or other to writing or whatever you're working on. But, uh, but yeah, it is once once you're trying to go somewhere. Crazy creatively, it's pretty difficult to describe, especially to children as something that's important. Like, no, I'm just thinking right now. And actually, that's important to be honest. Like, it doesn't look like you're doing anything. You're not doing the dishes, you know, you're not folding laundry. I can't tell what you're doing. You know, I'm 11. And I need something. So hey, what's up? What's up? Mom? It's like, Well, I was thinking, you know, that's a hard thing to try to tell a kid and have them believe you.

Thomas Mooney 42:20

Yeah. Yeah, it's, for me. I mean, I have one little brother, but we're 14 years apart. And so it by all means, like, we were kind of like just single children our entire lives growing up. But so I feel like that, for me, it's, it's so easy to just to understand, okay, go off and find something to do. But that's not you know, the usual because most people do have siblings, most people have a lot of other people in their lives or in their house, you know, how has how has like the the pandemic changed songwriting, and all that art has it just been that added a little bit more added pressure, you know, that those six hours being taken away? What else has has there been? Is there been anything else that's changed it for you?

Karen Jonas 43:19

Yes, for me, it's a, you know, a loss of my quiet space, which I you know, it's just a challenge that I have to live with here for a while. But for for a while, we weren't playing very many shows. And that actually encouraged me to write more Somehow, I think that I wasn't, you know, expressing as much as I usually would, if we're playing three or four shows a week, you know, I have all this opportunity to get whatever my musical angsty is out into the world. And without that, I definitely played guitar around the house like 10 times more than I usually would. And that was some, you know, learning songs that I like, and some writing and some just sort of ideas playing around. But so in some ways, that was good, because it encouraged me to make that space in my house to play music, even with the kids running around, which is just something that I usually wouldn't attempt to do. But uh, but so I enjoyed that. We're getting back to some outdoor shows now. Which is just really sweaty, cuz it's like 100 degrees for you, but we're playing a few a few shows again, which has been good, but I'm worried about what the fall will bring and what the cooler temperatures will bring in and just, you know, there's some worry about not being a part of places where people could be getting sec.

Thomas Mooney 45:01

Right. Has has the what was like, I guess the plan to always release in August or around there? Or was there thought about pushing the record further back or anything like that for you?

Karen Jonas 45:17

Our original intention had been to release more like many your June, I think. And

when,

you know, around the time when we should have been finalizing sort of all of our release plans is kind of right when everything shut down. And it really just pushed us a couple of months. Just as far as putting a team in place, and everything was just kind of a mess. For a few minutes there. But yeah, we landed at the end of August here, and I don't know if pushing it, you know, we talked a little is October different. And I don't know that it will be you know, I don't know that anything will be different. Until whatever moment this people are able to congregate again, in in venues and things and who knows when that is.

Thomas Mooney 46:19

Right. You know, like so much of, for starters, it's always such a weird thing, as far as having to push a date back with something that, obviously you've been around these songs for a couple of years. And I know with most artists, it's like, yeah, I really love this new record. But as artists, you always kind of want to, you know, you get it out, and you're already on to the next thing. And this feels like the great pause, if you will, has made that such a just a we're, this is all a territory that we've never been in. And I don't know, I don't know if people really understand that. And then also just like the so much music today is tied to tutorials. That's how you, you can you sell a record, right? And when that's kind of taken away. That's it. That's obviously it can be frustrating and worrisome. And all those little things that I don't know that I don't know, if the average person really

Karen Jonas 47:26

Oh, yeah, it's devastating. And we had it, we had worked so hard on this record. And for us, you know, this was going to be our big elevation, you know, we were going to drop a bunch of money into the release, which we're still dropping plenty of money into the release. But, you know, we were going to ideally, be able to use this record to elevate our touring and sort of move up a notch in the world of where we're able to perform and, you know, our touring schedule, and everything else. And you know, those opportunities that are lost are just gone. I mean, it's not like, you know, people are like, Oh, well, you can do that next year, you know, we were supposed to be at South Bay in March. And we were supposed to be in Europe in July. And, you know, maybe we can do them next year, but they will be with the momentum of this album, certainly. And once you leave that album cycle, momentum, it's just harder to get the opportunities that you get during that little, little bright light. When people are excited about your record release of that month, you know, we're that six months or whatever, whatever blip you get. And so to not be able to make the most of that. And obviously, it's not snot me, it's everyone who's releasing records this year. It's really hard and financially, it's really hard because the record releases so expensive. And we're independent artists. So, you know, my Tim and I, my guitars, Tim and I do do all of this. And it's a lot of work and it's a lot of money. Right. So it's hard to see those opportunities that that we were investing in, just not get to happen.

Thomas Mooney 49:25

Hmm. Yeah, like the, the I've known so many people who have obviously they've had a postponed tours or canceled tours and somebody so many of them are in Europe or in you know, for months stretches. And yeah, like they say postponed, but is it really postponed or is it full on canceled and especially if you're going to Europe. There's so much planning that has to go along with that. I just I can't imagine just the The added stress of the situation.

Karen Jonas 50:05

Yeah, ideally, you know, with your where a pushed all their festival dates to 2021 it's like, Well, hopefully we'll just be able to do do it then instead, and hopefully this record will help us do that better. But, you know, I feel like we are now in a world where you can't count on anything, you know, 2021 in the summer like, think right now we're still banned from most of Europe, hopefully by by 2021, we'll have all the speaking.

Thomas Mooney 50:39

This episode is in part brought to you by the blue light live here in Lubbock, Texas, while blue light is still close due to the pandemic, there is a way to help a support blue light, and B, get a sense of that normalcy by visiting blue light, loving, calm, clicking on the merge tab, and getting some koozies a vast array of T shirts and caps, and yes, even a blue light flag. While it is such a bummer, that live music is still on hold right now. I'm telling you, by getting some blue light live merge, we're gonna feel better, it just feels better wearing a T shirt and ballcap and helping support your favorite bar. Again, that's blue light lubbock.com click on the merge tab, get some merge. All right, back to the episode. People I've been talking with during this, they've they've had their free time taken up by some other kind of artistic outlets. Have you always just been a songwriter? Or have you tried other things out? for artistic expression?

Karen Jonas 51:49

Really, I've always, I've always been a songwriter. And you know, I've been I've been a songwriter, since I picked up a guitar when I was 16. And then when I, when I had my oldest June, I was I don't know 21. And so I've, I've really just written songs and played them and raised my kids. And that's, that's enough to take up quite a bit of time. I like to think about what I would do if I had more time, but I just don't have more time. So I definitely find that staying focused on what I what I do in order to do it well is pretty important. For me,

Thomas Mooney 52:37

yeah, I kind of figured, you know, having the four kids was that that was always that was enough stuff to do in general, just raising a family. But I didn't know you know, if you also painted or anything like that, have you always kind of been a daydreamer or anything like that. Because I feel like if you're a kid and you Daydream a whole lot, it really translates to, to the songwriting or storytelling in general.

Karen Jonas 53:09

I have, I've always I've always been, you know, I'm extremely introverted. Just as a as a person, and I'm, I'm better and better at being a social person now than I have been in the past. But uh, you know, I still like to be by myself and just be quiet and to think about things. And I think that's a lot of it. You know, when, when I was a kid, you talked about as a kid, I was like, I would go up in my room and hold up for days and work on you know, I did all kinds of crafts and things all by myself up there, listen to music and did my own thing. I read a ton, I have an English degree. Reading has always been a place where I like to go into stories. And and then now, you know, I don't have a ton of space, but I still like it. I like to lay in my bed forever. Let me put it in a couple of songs on this record. I think I just like to go back to bed and just look out the window and be

Thomas Mooney 54:16

Yeah, you know, I read a I think it was like an interview with cowboys and Indians where you mentioned, like liking to sleep and lay down and then after reading that, obviously I had the record on and I hit like one of the songs that mentioned sleeping or laying down like, just came on like right then too. And so I was like, Oh, yeah, she

Karen Jonas 54:41

and Tuesday for sure. It's Tuesdays wash. I'm going back to bed like I quit. I'm not doing this. I'm just gonna go lay back down and it's going to be better. It's going to be better there. And then I feel that a lot of days I think.

Thomas Mooney 54:56

Yeah, and then of course like the song The album title other dreams. You know, that's, I don't know, I always love, like just sitting there and like not doing anything other than thinking and, you know, sometimes like, obviously, as a music journalist, I'm almost always playing music, but sometimes even just like taking that off and just sitting in silences is more than fine with me. I don't know. If that's,

Karen Jonas 55:23

yeah, I don't. I listened to music that I know really well. But if I listened to a lot of new music, I find it really distracting to my thinking, like too much to focus on. I like to be off off in my world sometimes.

Thomas Mooney 55:39

Yeah, I don't know. I feel like most people aren't comfortable with that silence. I don't know why. But like for me, and that seems like you're very much the same way as far as just kind of being in your own head. One of my favorite things to ask people songwriters is, you know, you mentioned earlier doing the, like the, I guess like the the just the daily tasks of keeping your house up, the washing dishes, folding laundry and stuff, is that a great time for you to get into these character mindsets, and think about songs and think about your craft.

Karen Jonas 56:21

It is you know, if you know if I can talk my kids into going outside or, or somewhere says it's a little quieter. I actually find and driving especially driving with no music on is a real creative time for my brain. And then doing little menial things that don't require a lot of thinking like folding laundry, or washing dishes or something to me, that's a good time to, to really let your mind wander and think it's not a good time to write things down. But a lot of times, I think it's best to not rush the writing down into explore the thinking part a little more first. So

Thomas Mooney 57:06

what I always think like the, like the autopilot aspect of of those tasks help. Because what I sometimes what I'll end up doing is when I'm working on something, and you're trying to force it, like it just doesn't work. But then when you go do the dishes or something. And you're not really thinking about that, but it's like just kind of in the back. Sometimes, like whatever that was that aha moment will come to you.

Karen Jonas 57:35

It definitely it's a lot of pressure to sit down with a pen or to sit in front of a computer and say, Okay, I'm going to write something now. And I know there's a lot of writers that do that in a, you know, in a way that seems very diligent, like oh, I write every day from this time to this time. And I admire that. But to me, that puts a lot of pressure on like, just writing anything down, where I prefer to, you know, wait for some inspiration to strike in and then go write it down with it with a pen.

Thomas Mooney 58:12

Yeah. Do you know who Terry Allen is by chance? I don't. Okay, so Terry Allen. He's this songwriter from here in Lubbock, where I live and he's he's is a songwriter, where he's also an artist in general, he's got a bunch of sculptures and stuff like that. But you should check out some of his records sometime if you if you have the chance. But one of the things he always kind of has been saying is, he's got like a studio and that he doesn't necessarily even go in there. Always, everyday to work on something. But that just going in there and kind of being available to the moment helps him. And that's just kind of how he's, I guess, use that. And I feel like I don't know if I could ever write something every day. That that feels like like, goes back to the pressure. But I think understanding that you can have those be, I guess, like in the moment enough to capture if something passes you by is good enough.

Karen Jonas 59:22

I think so too. I think you know what, maybe that's why I like to go lay in my bed because that's like my, that's my studio. It's my brain studio in there. I've got it's comfortable and I've got pictures on the wall that I like and now I've got a window that like the light comes in really nice through and chartreuse curtain that I like a lot. So maybe that's my that's my studio space. But if I think about it like that. I feel like it's too much pressure, you know, but there's also always just taking a nap if nothing works out for the songwriting, you know, so that's not a wasted time for sure.

Thomas Mooney 59:59

You Yeah, like the, I don't know, like it's always so strange about even up to, like my teenage years. Didn't really nap ever didn't ever need a nap, obviously. And then like now that I'm after 30 I'm like, Oh, 20 minutes here, we can get that in. And

Karen Jonas 1:00:22

I love to nap. It's probably my favorite thing to go just to go and you go off into that thinking world, like I've definitely gone to sleep with ideas and woken up with songs. I would say, a little nap, you know, can can sprout some things.

Thomas Mooney 1:00:40

Yeah. What? what I love to do is, so I like to drink coffee, a bunch. I kind of drink all the coffee throughout the day. Not like a crazy amount. But the drink a little bit of coffee before you take a nap. And make sure like your nap is in that 20 to 30 minute range. And you always kind of wake up a little bit more refreshed than usual because that

Karen Jonas 1:01:05

pre nap coffee. Yeah, that's bold.

Thomas Mooney 1:01:08

We know it kicks in right around the time you wake up. I'm telling you

Karen Jonas 1:01:14

sounds like science.

Thomas Mooney 1:01:15

No, that's what I was gonna say. Like, I read this in some magazine or something like that.

Karen Jonas 1:01:20

Well, I'm gonna have to try that.

Thomas Mooney 1:01:21

Yeah, I was gonna just, yeah, throw that one out there for you.

Karen Jonas 1:01:25

Yeah. I mean, I think that's the thing. Like, do you have a nice Italian meal? You're supposed to have a coffee with your dessert. Is that related? Or no? I feel like that would kick in too soon.

Thomas Mooney 1:01:35

I have no idea. Sounds like if something

Karen Jonas 1:01:42

sounds plausible, I don't know. I'm just making stuff up now. So I don't know. But But I'm going to give coffee before my nap extra. I usually, if I'm lucky enough to get a nap. I do wake up and immediately microwave, a new cup of coffee. So I'm not sure what happens to coffee when you microwave it. It's about half as good as it was the first time but it still works. So that's the main thing.

Thomas Mooney 1:02:04

Yeah. So like, yeah, just try it. Like just drink the cup beforehand, and then 2030 minute nap. And it has to be like that little period because that's when by the time the caffeine really kicks in. So

Karen Jonas 1:02:19

that might be too much pressure to now now it's like I gotta go to sleep or my coffee is gonna wake wake me up too soon.

Thomas Mooney 1:02:26

Yeah, no, I don't need to add pressure to you. But like, yeah, you know, I really have been enjoying talking with you today. I've really enjoyed the new record. And yeah, I gotta let you let you get on to naps or, or kids or songwriting?

Karen Jonas 1:02:46

Well, thank you. It's been fun talking to you. I appreciate you having me on the podcast here. And listening to the record and talking about Bob Dylan and coffee.

Thomas Mooney 1:02:57

Alright, that's it for Episode 116 with Karen Jonas, check out Karen's latest album, the Southwest sky and other dreams. Check out desert door and the blue light live. Stop on over at the new slang merch store while you're at it. Okay, I'll see y'all later this week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai