097: Will Hoge
On Episode 097, I'm joined by singer-songwriter Will Hoge. At the end of this week (Friday, June 26), Hoge is releasing his latest album, Tiny Little Movies. At 11 tracks long, Hoge delivers vivid imagery and detail as he breathes life into a cast of common and everyday characters. Throughout, he captures their anxieties, struggles, dreams, successes, and relationships with a delicate understanding and empathetic touch. In addition, Hoge's brand of Heartland Rock meets country sees the blue-collar Nashville troubadour often embraces a grittier and rollicking sonic punch that's as driving as anything in Hoge's diverse song catalog.
This episode's presenting partner is Smith Iron & Design and Wicker's Mesquite Smoked Jalapeno Jelly.
Interview Transcript
Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.
Thomas Mooney 0:00
Hey, everyone. Welcome to New slang. I'm your host music journalist Thomas Mooney, I hope all of yours weeks are starting off on the right foot. This is Episode 97, where I'm joined by singer songwriter Will Hoge, who at the end of this week is releasing his latest album, tiny little movies, I really love that title. And that approach to songwriting Will has long been one of my favorite songwriters going, he's been so great at capturing small town, America, that aspect of heartland rock, if you will, being young and full of dreams, and just being primed to take on the world. Of course, that is a two way street, it can't all be the highs. So a lot of the time, there are these great songs where we kind of come up on to the character right after life has just kind of given them a few gut punches. Maybe that's like a down economy or a busted up relationship, various family dynamics, or just like, you know, just the universe seemingly picking on that person with a with a series of unfortunate events or something. At any rate, you know, I know will knows the narrator knows that, you know, like that nothing in life is ever as simple as that initial dream is, it takes a lot of hard work and sharpening whatever skills you have. And in my opinion, like a big one is just luck. And that whatever you call that, I'd maybe call it experience, even though that sounds way too small in the grand scheme of things. So whatever that is, Will is able to capture all of those jumbled and mixed emotions of dreams and struggles and setbacks and big breaks and put them into a record tiny little movies is very much that one element though, that I would like to kind of focus on for a second is this tiny little movies finds these characters, where their dreams are shifting, or they're kind of like maybe giving up on those dreams or reality sets in for them. And a huge aspect of that is appreciation. Maybe a lot of times that's appreciation for something in life, maybe an accomplishment, or someone coming into your life that wasn't maybe a part of that initial checklist, but whatever it is, it fulfills your life. I think that's an essential part of life. It's it's not necessarily lowering your standards for what, what successes but realizing that success comes in many, many various forms. And with that is, is having good mental health. Or rather, I guess more accurately working on having good mental health. If you've been listening to new slang since the New Year, you've probably seen where I've spoke with various artists about mental health and anxiety. Now, that's all kind of stemming from living in a bubble of sorts this year, and how it's really just been an unstable force in all of our lives, and will and I have a really nice conversation towards the end of this episode, since he has written a few songs about those struggles. Now obviously, those songs aren't about being a musician, during a pandemic, but at any rate, I think they're important they they help break down the stigma of mental health. By no means am I an expert when it comes to this, but I thoroughly believe that different things help different people. But the worst thing is avoiding ignoring or just kind of burying those feelings or pressures or anxieties. There isn't any shame or weakness and admitting when you need help. Anyway, I know I'm off on a tiny little tangent here, but I think it's important and it definitely relates to the beauty of this new record by will so yeah, tiny little movies by will hug officially out Friday, June 26. If this is your first time listening to Newsline, please hit that subscribe or follow button wherever you may be listening, leave a five star review over on iTunes, Google podcasts and so on. If you want to further the music conversation go follow me over on Twitter and on Instagram at underscore new slang. If Facebook is more your style, go give a like over there. Alright, here is Will Hoge. Just like we're going to start out with obviously you have a new record that's going to be coming out tiny little movies. I guess like whenever I heard the title, the one thing that really popped in my head was you know a lot of artists try and create those little movies with within a song within those five minutes, three minutes wherever the case is. But you you ever have like a I guess like a we have to like scale it back some because you know it is a five minute song it is four minutes wherever the cases.
Will Hoge 4:30
Yeah, I mean, I think I've tried to sort of mix those two. I mean, because there are things that you write I mean, I still write with radio in mind, you know, I just there's still a part of rock and roll that's radio driven for me and you know so i think about the first times hearing songs on the radio and those things that you just you know, the the thought of driving in your car by yourself with the windows down with whatever this great song like that. You just can't stop listening to to, you know, comes on the radio, and that tends to be a three and a half minute kind of format, really. And truly, I mean, unless you know, you get Freebird and Stairway to Heaven in there every now and then that's a little different. But, yeah. So yeah, I mean, I always try to kind of keep things in the confines of form four minutes, but then there are songs that I have, there's songs on this record that are longer than that. And so, you know, I've also learned radio shouldn't be the gatekeeper for what I do with songs, I'm not going to leave out a great guitar solo or a verse that really makes a song important. But I think we're at gravitate to naturally is this sort of that three and a half minute song is, is cool. And I think it's, you know, I think of myself as a writer, you know, I've got friends that are authors, you know, think about how I have to worry about trying to fill three and a half or four minutes of information and how much work that is. And I think about friends that write books, or make movies for a living that have to do 500 pages or two hours of a movie and what that process is like, so I feel like I got it pretty easy.
Thomas Mooney 6:07
Yeah, it's, uh, the thing is, is it is it's so interesting to see how you have to put so much you have to like, set the scene so quickly in a song, right, you have to kind of tell us who this person is out the gate. And I guess like that, that means you have to use your words more carefully to create that character that that setting and everything like that. These feel like you that that gets easier over time.
Will Hoge 6:39
I don't know that the process of starting there gets easier the process of telling yourself that this is all wasted, information gets easier for sure. There's still a natural tendency, every time he's tried to tell a story. I think there's this natural thing to over explain. And I think that sometimes, you know, they haven't done the rider thing here in Nashville for a few years. You know, there is definitely a thing, especially in what you know, I guess you consider modern country music. there's a there's a real tendency with the guys and girls that make those records. The right you, they cater to an audience of people that they think are stupid. And that bugs me because I you know, I personally don't think that people to listen to records or are idiots I don't think you have to over explain there's sometimes this tendency to just especially in Nashville to do this thing where you have to explain every little piece of every song and there can't be any mystery. And there can't be this moment of what is that mean? Or what is that talking about has to be just the most mundane paint by numbers. art that you can imagine. And you know, again, that's, that's fine. It's just not interesting to me. And so I like the idea of you may start there, but then you really start to call things back one of my first I wrote for a while with Don Schlitz, who was one of my favorite people that I know and one of my favorite writers and it's just written so many incredible songs over the years and I was really intimidated. The first day we went into write and, you know, one of the things that's one of the things he really told me he was talking about, because I pulled out a pen and paper or pencil and paper to still write you know, tons of people now Yeah, everybody's writing on a laptop just typing stuff in and he made the comment. He was like, you know, then we laughed about then you're a song typist and not a songwriter. But anyway, yeah, he made a joke that nobody's laptop is gonna look cool in the Country Music Hall of Fame when they start talking about here's so and so's song book and it's just an old MacBook Pro with nothing on it, you know, you want to see a notebook with that's Yeah, like, that's just that's a boring exhibit. But, you know, he mentioned and we started really talking about these sort of great songs that sums that he written some that just other classic songs and when you really start getting down to the great ones, lyrically, a lot of times it'll be damn near fit on a three by five card by the time you really write down what it is and if you don't write the chorus out every time there's there's not an an over abundance of information, you know, and I just love that I like the idea of really trying to get in and in as little verbiage as possible trying to get the the point of your story across and I hope that's something that I continue to to get better at and I'll just bore people to death with the shit that doesn't matter.
Thomas Mooney 9:49
Yeah, man, that's incredible. Like a three by five that's that's a for starters. That's just incredible imagery right there.
Will Hoge 9:57
And that well and you know, I really like I started going back And kind of after that conversation, you know, I'd think about not just songs that you like, but like those really like the the life chain, like the songs that you would sort of look at, like, shit if I ever wrote that. Like, that's the one that you're like, Okay, and that could be everything from like Hank Williams stuff to Beatles records to, you know r&b stuff that's really incredible Smokey Robinson, like a lot of those songs that you would look at to change your life, if you were to really write them out. And really, I'd sort of sit with this image of a three by five gerbil. Yeah, that kind of that kind of gets it all on there. So you know, if it's good enough for grandma's chicken pot pie recipe, it's good enough for a song I figure.
Thomas Mooney 10:42
Yeah, yeah. Any I guess like that's something too is like you, you know, a lot of those songs that are your favorite songs, whatever character it is. It's it's, it's almost like you know, you're adding pieces of the armor onto your personifying it. And like, it's, it's through conversations with, with friends and, you know, reading articles or books or whatever, that you really that's where the all those the characters get fleshed out. You know, that's Yeah. All the all the details are added. You know, that's the fun part. I feel.
Will Hoge 11:19
Yeah, I think so I think as a listener and a creator, I think that that's where it starts to get really interesting. Yeah, I agree.
Thomas Mooney 11:28
I'm reminded of it right now, simply because it's his birthday. Terry Allen, are you familiar with Terry Allen? Okay, so like, Yeah, one of the things he talked about was, with his first record, war is like the characters. I guess, like part of the part of those characters things. thing was, he was painting them and sculpting them and stuff like that, but he would never put a face onto him. And he felt like putting a face to those characters changed them. And, like, that's one of the reasons why he's never even gone down the route of ever trying to make it into a movie or a play or anything. Like, he never wants that to happen to it, because then it becomes something I guess maybe static in a way of like, of being grounded in to those characters. Being faceless for him is always been my guess, the way to keep them, you know, a little bit mysterious and magical.
Will Hoge 12:26
Well, I think you like that, like it says a listener. I mean, there's so many songs that, you know, the having submit, I mean, that's what great mean, again, come back to rock and roll mean that that think that's what it's supposed to be about, like, each person should let those My favorite thing as a kid is like listening to old records with headphones on and reading the lyrics and looking at a record and going, what does this mean? And you know, you I remember finding words like, I don't even know what this word mean, like literally don't know, not only do I not know what this song means, I don't even know what this word is. And, you know, going back and trying to find those things and really developing, you know, if we had, you know, a criminal sketch artist come out, and you and I both described what Pancho and lefty look like, it's probably not going to look very similar. You know, and because your image of it. And mine, that doesn't mean we don't both love the song, doesn't mean we don't both think it's kind of about the same thing. But you know, that I just I think that leaving people some room for interpretation and songs is not a terrible thing.
Thomas Mooney 13:34
Yeah,
Will Hoge 13:35
I think it keeps it fresh, like you've sent me I think, then you come back, because there is always that little bit of mystery, you know, or you find things years later, after you've heard a song 1000 times, you know, you find a lyric that hits you differently a certain day or something's changed in your life, you've had kids or gotten married or gotten a divorce, or, you know, your parents had passed, or whatever the thing is, and all of a sudden, you know, great art can grow with you too, I think.
Thomas Mooney 14:04
Yeah, absolutely. I love the where your, your impression of a song adapts to and evolves, how, how time passes, you know, like a song changes can change, you know, 10 years apart. But then also at the same time, sometimes songs just stay the same. And that's like the I guess the beauty and the magic of it all, is that sometimes they can just throw you back into being 18 years
old? Well, yeah,
times, you know, you see the flip of that coin. When you're 30 something or you know,
Will Hoge 14:39
yeah, yeah. And you know, and I think there's some really, you know, I think there's songs too, that can do both. I think there's things that you can hear and have this sort of visceral reaction to what you know where you were the first time you heard maybe like you say, you were with your buddies in your early 20s. And this was the song that you played every single night that you were together and it brings you back to this thing. But then you have that response. At the same time you're hearing it going, Man, you know, and here I am now and this lyric about, you know, that I thought was just about a girl is about my whole life. I mean, you know, that happens even as a writer, I mean, there's times that, you know, people ask you sometimes What's this song about? And, you know, sometimes you, you know, I don't think you always know, I mean, I think sometimes it's even for the writer. I mean, there's songs that you go, Well, this, you know, when I wrote it, it was about a breakup with this girl, but then you know, you, you can go and then you realize, well, then, okay, you know, maybe 10 years, it's all of a sudden, it's this defiant thing of how you're going to start to take better care of yourself. And then you go, Oh, shit, okay, that was more than I realized. And then 10 years later, it's about you know, your first kid. I mean, you just you have a totally different experiences with songs. I think when when they're done for the right reasons. Absolutely. Yeah.
Thomas Mooney 16:06
Let's for just for example, like Pancho and lefty. I feel like, for me growing up, like I think they, you kind of relate to Poncho? More because of the romanticism, right? You feel bad for that character? Do you? Listen to it now? Do you feel like, you know, where you feel a little bit more sympathetic, and, and sad for lefty?
Will Hoge 16:32
I do. I think there's both of those. I mean, you know, I think if your respective on things doesn't change, I mean, you know, this goes bigger than that song for him. It's like it. You know, it's 46 years old, if my impressions of everything that's ever happened to the same as when I was 18. Like, I got a lot of fucking problems. I got to this point in my life, I'm still seeing things like an 18 year old, I'm just gonna be in shitty shape. Yeah, I think you do. And you start to really change the way that you and interpret those characters. And you should, you know, you start to see, there's certain things I think when you're young that you look at that you go, Okay, this is really black and white. This is good, this is bad. This is who I am. And then some of those things remain true, you know, throughout your life. But there's also other things as you grow, you kind of go like, oh, wait a minute, maybe this fucker had bills and some other shit that I wasn't thinking of when I was 18. Maybe he's not that he's not as bad guys. I thought, you know, maybe he is just trying to find his way to and maybe, you know, maybe the song is more just about friends falling apart and trying to find their own way. Yeah, it's a it's, it's a cool thing to be a part of getting to, to really dig into those things, I think.
Thomas Mooney 17:53
Yeah, I feel like the older I've gotten. And partly, I think it's because of the being a journalist.
The and I
still think there is something that's really cool about it. The the youthful exuberance of being young, right? vinegar, and all that kind of stuff.
Unknown Speaker 18:14
But oh, yeah,
Thomas Mooney 18:14
I think that like as, as I'm old, as I've aged, and as I've done more interviews and stuff like that, you can't help but you know, lose a little bit of the romanticism of these characters. And we're not necessarily like you, you don't relate to them, but like you, you do put them in actual perspective of being an adult. So I think that's really cool. One thing I wanted to go back to that you mentioned was the your audience, you know, that I feel like that's probably the the thing that you can, the biggest disservice you can do to a person is think that they're stupid, that they're not Yeah, to make those connections. Yeah, like, what do you what do you think about like, I guess as our as audiences, you can't do you feel like you just you can't hold them by the hand? Basically?
Will Hoge 19:13
What can or can't? I don't know, I'm just not willing to. I mean, speaking for me, personally, I mean, again, we can talk about the artists at large, in a different conversation, but for me, personally, you know, that's just my whole thing. Like, I, I'm not here to hold your hand and do what you want. When you want it. Like that's just not, that's not what I want to do. I don't make records and write songs in the hopes that the audience likes them. And I know that sounds cocky and shit, and I don't mean it. Like I don't mean that I don't want people to and I do I mean, there's a part of me every time I put it right, you put a record out because hopefully you want people to fucking like it. But I don't sit and create the songs and I don't second guess myself with this thing. Well, what if, you know what if this ruffles someone's feathers? Or what if somebody doesn't like this, because just I mean rock and roll by committee is really shitty music every time. And so I'd rather you know, I think that as you build an audience of whatever size, you start to really build trust, I mean, there are people that still come to see me play still buy every record I make, and they don't, they don't agree with everything I say, or think or feel or write about. And that'd be full, I'd be a fool. If I thought that everyone would, I think the thing that it starts to show you is they're people that you can still have differing opinions about things politically and musically. And there's people that will say, you know, I'd like I like the rock, loud version of what you do, and not the quiet singer, songwriter version, and there's somebody else, they'll say, the exact opposite, there's somebody else, it'll say something that's right in the middle. And so I'm not going to try to please any of those folks, I'm going to try to just do what I want to do. And ultimately, I think that people gravitate towards people that they love, and they trust and they feel like are going to shoot them straight. And I say that as a, you know, as a white Southern male. I'm expected to be stupid by lots of people, you know, and I am the demographic of people that, you know, people that believe white, Southern males are stupid, and we can pander to them. And they're not smart enough to figure it out. Well, I don't abide by that. And I don't I don't think I'm that way. And I damn sure don't think that lots of other people are that way. I don't think you this idea that you can't be a truck driver that also enjoys poetry and art is incredibly small minded. You know, like, you can't be a plumber that also enjoys a good book, I just think is bullshit. Like, I don't I don't buy into that at all.
Thomas Mooney 22:00
Yeah, it's well, that's interesting, because like, I agree, like there is that stereotypical dumb you know, quote unquote redneck right? Yeah. But like throughout our history, I would say like the southern writers are always like, have been like the they've had the best pulse on on what American is what America is what Americana is, you know what I mean? Everyone from Faulkner to guys, like, even like, guys, like Ben Nichols. Aloo Serra, or like, whoever, you know what I mean? Or his brother, who has been making great films, you know, Cormac McCarthy, like all these people wind up having their pulse on what, what's happening?
Will Hoge 22:46
Well, it's one of my favorite things about the South. I mean, I think that the South gets this rap as being this place. It's incredibly backwards on so many levels. And, I mean, this is where we have to just be honest, in the mirror, where they're still there is things about the South that are incredibly backwards and have been for years and still are. I mean, you look at what's happening now with Coronavirus, stuff in the south doesn't come out looking like a shining gem at this point. You know, you talk about this guy that was murdered in Atlanta in February, and it's just out for a jog. I mean, you know, there's shit. The South, understandably, gets its feet held to the fire for the stupid shit that we do. as a as a region. But the other thing I mean, and what makes me really proud about where I've grown up, and in those things is, you know, it's still at the end of the day, I mean, the music, the food, the literature, the art, the culture, everything that's created in South is, it's still my favorite shit. I mean, and I think we would be a far lesser country without those contributions and the things that really changed what we the the advances we see in equal rights for all people across the board. A lot of those things are born in the south as well. And so we have to take, you know, you can't just take the bat if we're going to take our lumps for the bad shit. We damn sure how to get some credit for the good stuff, too.
Thomas Mooney 24:14
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the food, the food's great. Yeah.
Will Hoge 24:17
I just ate I was finishing lunch. There's this new, you know, Sean Brock. Yes, he's, he's from Charleston, and he's living here. Now. He's from here and he had a restaurant Charles, he's got us got a bunch of different, really fancy he was one of the big leaders in sort of Southern farm cuisine and really, you know, natural Southern ingredients in that kind of idea of really making good food out of these classic Southern dishes, but he has just opened this burger restaurant called joy land, and it's kind of If you've ever been to Oxford, Mississippi, there's an old gas station there that used to all the rock and roll, guys. I mean, you'd eat there every time you finish places chicken on a stick and this gas station. And so he's got this restaurant now that's, you know, he just drive up and they bring bags of food out. And it's curly fries and waffle fries. They're incredible milkshakes. And he's really great, homemade, kind of slider burgers with great ingredients and these chicken on a stick. So it was just, it was an incredibly Southern meal and the kids and my wife and I just scarfed all that down. So if this is all slow, it's because I'm about to slip into a food coma probably.
Thomas Mooney 25:36
Yeah, yeah.
I guess like,
I've only been through the, I guess what you'd call the deep south a couple of times. I obviously live here in Texas, but I kind of Yeah, Texas is in that middle area of Western and south. Especially where I'm from further south. So or west. Yeah. But uh, yeah, like, I don't know, like I felt of all the places I was going through. I felt like Oxford was was just really just a I don't know, it just felt good there. Like it wasn't nearly as hot as I thought it was gonna be. Maybe Yeah, good day. I don't know. But
Will Hoge 26:15
yeah, now Oxford is one of my favorite cities. You know, it's such a cool cultural town that obviously has its demons and everything there too. But there's always been such a hub for art there. And we live there for a while made a record my America EP was was made at this great studio with a guy down there, who's relocated to Athens now, but we spent a lot of time in Oxford early on, and have just always, always really identified with it. Great, you know, great bookstores there on the square great food, great music. It's kind of always been a cool place and still is if they hadn't been in a while, but you know, hopefully the world opens back up.
Thomas Mooney 27:01
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Will Hoge 29:18
it still is. I mean, yeah. As much as I didn't grow up with that being a thing. I didn't come from a family of readers. I wasn't my mom and dad don't read them when I say they don't know when they can't read. They just they weren't the kind of sat around and and look, you know, there was probably 10 books in my house growing up, maybe. And I don't think they were things it wasn't like we ever went back and revisited. There were things that were probably gifts from a parent we just didn't read. Growing up, I'd have to read for school. So I didn't come to that until later. Now one of my first things I loved was going to a record store and you know, not Even going in with an intention of buying anything, but just wandering around and looking at what like, you know what, what album covers look cool, and you could listen to new shit that I fell in love with. And then, you know 10 or 12 years ago is really where I started to dig more into books. And the bookstore became, you know, that for me like the same feeling I would get as a kid and a record stores now. I'm equally if not more excited by the bookstore and doing the same thing. I mean, I wander the aisles very rarely with any intention of like, Okay, I'm going to get this book, I tend to go in and do the same thing that I would do with records is like, hey, this cover on this book looks cool. pull that down and read about the author and maybe read the first page and see if something in it seems interesting. And you know, and then grab that and buy something new or then go and look at the end cap and see what is recommended. Yeah, man, it's a it's incredibly romanticized for all the right reasons for me both of those scenarios still, but but like I said, the book things started much later for me.
Thomas Mooney 31:13
Yeah, yeah, I love that as well, I, I try and do the whole thing. We're going into a record store without having like that, I need to go buy this record, you know, there's something really cool about that. And there's still like, Yeah,
Will Hoge 31:28
go ahead. No, my friend Ed tarkington, who is an author that had a book come out a couple years ago called only love can break your heart. And I'd written a couple songs, they did a 45 release with the release of the book, but you know, through him, it was also really cool for me to see the whole indie bookstore in the author literary world is so incredibly similar to the rock and roll world and it was really neat to see that like to get into this whole you know, group of the same way that guys and girls and bands really try to support one another, you know, you spread the word about your show, you go and you try to support you know, if you're in town on a night and there's somebody playing that, you know, like you go, you know, you just go and you support and really seeing these authors doing the same things and trying to make sure the same way that musicians are trying to do an in store at the record store to make sure that people come in and it just keeps the community alive. You know, the artists has a place to sell their wares the community has a place to go and buy records that keeps people employed it's all of these things that really build community and the book world unbeknownst to me having never dipped a toe in it at all, you know, that is it's incredibly similar and you got the same group of people that are really trying to just continue this whole medium it's a cool thing to get to witness
Thomas Mooney 32:55
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I
I kind of like a lot of it's almost like a big basketball fan so Oh, yeah. Okay, it was like a few I guess classic looks at seasons you know yeah, I guess like right now like with the the Jordan documentary right what's kind of comeback is the Jordan rules by Sam Smith and that was kind of a like a look at this season and that entire deal where you know it it kind of got him a little on the didn't do a lot of favors with the the Chicago Bulls, let's put it that way. But like, I guess like that entire thing about all I love, like reading those kinds of books, and I'm going there's a place I'm going with this that is just rambling. But oh no. So there's like, this writer named Ethan Straus who just recently put a book out about the Golden State Warriors and about Kevin brand stuff and he put it out like I guess right at the right as the quarantine hit. And so he had all these you know, book tour stops set and yeah, obviously all those were cancelled, but like what was what's been interesting is he I guess they found like another avenue of doing those Q and A's and those talking about the books and it's been through podcasts like he's been probably eight podcasts about write a book and everything and I just find that entirely just cool. Like, hopefully one day I'll get a book out and you know, but it's one of those things where it's nice to be able to see those people and ask them questions about the book you know, and I don't know there's just something really like you said there's something very connected to release into record and kind of doing the same thing.
Will Hoge 34:48
Well, and I love the same you know, the same kid years ago I got when the when the app had first kind of became the thing my in laws had given me one and you know, Knowing that I like books and said, You know, there's a way for you to really keep this. And you can keep tons of books on here and you can read on the road not have to haul stuff around, which is incredibly kind. But what I found was, you know, there's also this romantic idea, there's a group of people that are going to consume in a new digital format, they're going to read books. And I think that's great. I understand all of that same way with music. But there is this subset of people that really still care enough about it in a way that, you know, they want the vinyl record, they want to put it on a record player at home and sit for 40 minutes or 90 minutes, or whatever it is, and listen to your album The way that you sort of space it and sequence it. And the same thing with books like I very rarely read an E book, or listen to a book on tape. No judge, it's not that it's a better thing. But I just zone out. What I love about books is the same thing I love about records. Like I love to sit and have the time during the day or at night when everybody goes to bed and sit in the quiet and read a book. And I like the tactile idea of looking at the cover and feeling the pages and all of that. And I don't know, it's just cool that there's still a group of people out there that really care about that enough to to make it a thing. I love that.
Thomas Mooney 36:17
Yeah, I there has to be something scientifically proven about like how touching it and feeling it, it makes it stick more, you know? Yeah. Obviously, like, this is something I've talked about on previous episodes. So I'm sure listeners are gonna go, Oh, god, he's bringing this up again. But the, when you listen to a record on vinyl, it becomes an event. You know, there's, you're more invested in having to go flip the record and pick out the rhino and all that kind of stuff. But what for an artist like you, obviously like there has been a revival of, of vinyl. Has that changed the way you've just how you looked at tracklisting? And like, what goes on side A and Side B now versus, you know, what's on a CD?
Will Hoge 37:08
Yeah, it has. And, you know, this record in particular is one we had really yeah. And I probably overthinking ultimately don't know if it even matters. I mean, don't say that, like I don't know. But I just you know, I think about it to a point that's ridiculous and new with his new album, we had a sequence in place, and we had lived with it and listened to it and kicked it around. And it was great. I just felt like it's perfect. And we did the artwork, we did everything we sent it to the guy in Memphis, Jeff pal, that was going to cut the lacquers for the vinyl. And he called back and said Saturday is is too long. There's you know, you've got to keep it under a certain amount of time to even get the sound quality that you want on vinyl. And I was heartbroken. I was like, shit, we spent so much time on this. And like, I felt like the sequence was perfect. But I just didn't, we had to move a song like and then we redid all of it. Because then there was talk, we were just going to change it for the vinyl and leave it the same for the CD or for the digital stuff. But once we changed it, there was a part where it's like, actually, now I kind of I think I did this better in the break stayed the same. The big thing was like end of side one versus the starboard side two, that never changed, but we changed it and I ended up liking it even better. And, and so yeah, it's it's a factor for sure.
Thomas Mooney 38:36
Yeah. Yeah, I guess like I was talking with someone yesterday about this was, you know, it would be at the end of the day, there's probably some aspects that where it doesn't matter, but it would probably be just something that bothered you still, like he would just be like a little nitpick that would go you know, if you didn't have it your way, you know, so yeah, that's the the key of it all, I think like it's the, you know, this is it's even though songs evolve and all that kind of stuff. It's still gonna be like, that's the way it is. That's the way it was done. So, you know, with the artist, you have to get it the way you want to where you're able to live with it.
Will Hoge 39:17
Well, and that's the thing, that's the difference between, you know, recorded music versus playing live. I mean, that's the thing that's that you love about both. I mean, you know, recorded music is really like it's the photograph or the movie, like you've committed to this thing. Like that's never going to change the way this record. You know, this song was recorded this I mean, you can remix it 50 times and do all that but like that's that we're done. And that's going to be it forever. 50 years from now somebody digs up your old fucking record. That's how it's gonna sound and what it's going to be. And you know the difference in the live performance is the thing I love about that too is that that changes every night. You know, the song can be slow or the song can be long. The song can change a verse or add a chorus, I mean, it becomes this really living, breathing entity live. And that's what's really powerful about indifferent about both of those formats.
Thomas Mooney 40:13
What What is there like an example of a song that has changed the most over time, since like that whatever you did recording was to how you play it now and 2020
Will Hoge 40:24
It's different with all it changes a lot. I don't know if there's a particular song, but I'll tell you that how that changes, one it changes and just band interpretation. Because, you know, my band has changed so much over the years, he get things that are better with every outfit that comes in, you know, a lot of times it's guys that are, they didn't play on the records before, but now they're in the band, and maybe they've played on the new record, how do we interpret these older things. So that changes a lot in how things get played. And, you know, maybe a certain guitar player obviously has a different style than the other because I've always found myself never turned to I think it's fruitless to try and replace, quote, unquote, replace band members, you know, you really just you try to find new band members that bring something cool to the table and may not be as good as the other guy in some spots. But it's better than others. So there's just a ton. I mean, there's things you know, shit, my first record was made in late 99, I guess. And so, you know, my interpretation or all those situations has changed, my guitar plans changed, my singing style has changed. Nobody's in the band anymore that was in that band. So you know, it's just, it, they all change. I mean, and then there's things that change, you know, just tempo wise things from a new record. You know, it's so it's, it's a long winded answer of saying, I think they all change and with us, sometimes that's Night, night after night, they may change. It's not even something that happens years down the road. It could be the next night, it's a different song than it wasn't before.
Thomas Mooney 42:01
Yeah. Obviously, like, you're, you've always kind of had this really like your thumb on what, what I would call like, you know, just the next wave of heartland rock. But like, on this record, you know, there's some, like powerpop moments on here, there's some punch kind of stuff. I guess like did you did you guys, what did you walk in thinking that was a sound you were searching for? Or did it just kind of happen while y'all were in the studio? And it was like, Oh, this works for these badges songs. Let's go that route.
Will Hoge 42:34
It was more of the latter. I mean, it's not ever incredibly premeditated, I mean, you know, the songs going in and that kind of pop element. And, and I say that it was like a power pop, like you said, I think is probably the best way of describing and, you know, those are sounds. I mean, I think for my first few records, those were always things that were there for me. I feel like in a lot of ways, you know, bands like I mean, I think, you know, oasis in a lot of ways was power pot ban, you know, XTC cheap trick. I mean, so, you know, Tom Petty, Elvis Costello, I mean, all of that stuff, in a lot of ways is, is one foot, at least, in that world. And I've always loved those bands and those records. So I think that as the as I started putting what I thought was the record together in my head, and then the band and rehearsing things, and yeah, I think it was, there's two ways to go about it. You know, when you've got songs that sound a certain way, you either there's two ways to approach them, you either then go, okay, we want this to not be this thing. So we're gonna go and try to make something completely different than what happens when I play this song, naturally, and sometimes that's cool. And then the other option is sort of, Okay, what if we just go, just go all the way down this rabbit hole, like naked, this thing that it kind of feels like it is naturally. And ultimately, those are the songs I like, more, you know, I occasionally, you'll run across a song and I'll put them on records where you're writing one particular way. And then it ultimately ends up somewhere completely different. And that's way better. That doesn't happen near as much as it does the the idea of just sort of embracing what the songs are. And that's what we did with this was really just we didn't pull any punches with what the songs were. I think we just went for it and tried to really capture that moment.
Thomas Mooney 44:43
Yeah, there is a Yeah, like, I think people always like think of the word pop is is like a dirty word, but, like pop sensibilities is what makes that song that you love. catchy, you know what I mean? So like, I feel like the best bands, they always embrace that aspect. And yeah, you mentioned oasis. I've always loved just the way Oasis sounds. One of the things I was going to ask was since you brought up Oasis was like, I guess like, no, Gallagher has always kind of talked about how he's written he would write certain words, certain phrases, simply because they sounded good. The way Liam Sung. Yeah, those long vowels and stuff like that. Have you found like that you sing certain vowels or certain phrases really well, that the in they they, I don't know, that you kind of like gravitate towards those kind of sounds?
Will Hoge 45:43
No, I hadn't? I've never really thought about that. That's an interesting. say, No, I haven't, you know, I do think that kind of the opposite of that being true. You know, there was a, there was a period and I think I've gotten better about it. Singing always came pretty easy. For me, like, that was something that, I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and say I'm great at it. But it was it was easy. Like, my voice seemed to always be something that people were drawn to, from the get go from first GarageBand days. I mean, it was like, okay, that guy can sing. So I think there was the opposite of that, for me, which was, I think there were, especially early on, you know, you could write a C, solid see song, you know, that? Like, I don't know, I mean, does this really say what it needs to say, but I think that there was a point specially when you're young, it's like, well, I'll just, I can sing my way out of this. You know, it's like, I'll just sing. If I sing it better, then it'll be okay. And it took a long time for me to realize kind of the opposite of that, which was, I really need to write this in a way that if I just read it, it's interesting. And then if I sing it really well on top of it, then it's kind of an added bonus. But the idea that I'm going to sing myself from a, b minus song to a V plus is, it's kind of a lazy way of going about it. And I'm glad to have finally had enough self awareness and self ridicule to kind of get myself out of that. And I think now, that's one of the things that I really try to focus on, especially writing and then being self produced is the other thing, you know, looking at it going like, man, is that really good enough? Or is that just lazy? And when it's lazy, you have to fix it?
Thomas Mooney 47:40
Yeah, yeah. There's the, you know, like, though, that the example though, is pops into mind when somebody says, you know, what is that song about? But it just sounds good is Hello, goodbye by The Beatles. Right? Like, yeah, it sounds really cool. And it's like, you know, it's obviously, you can probably say what it's about in a sentence, but it's also like, just a lot of the same shit over and over, you know, yeah.
Will Hoge 48:05
But it's just like I said, That's, and that's one of my favorite things about that band. I mean, it's that there's still some of those songs that I don't necessarily know what that's about. But I know that what it does, it makes me feel a particular way or feel a particular moment. And they sound great. The melodies are great. And the playing is killer. I mean, it's, you know, I mean, that's why they're the greatest band that ever was, and there's a reason for that.
Thomas Mooney 48:31
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
This episode is sponsored by Smith, iron in design. It's owned and operated by one of my good friends Aaron Smith, and his dad, sonny. As the name implies, Smith iron and design specializes in creating custom metal and woodwork. The vast array of metal signs that are perfect wall decor that will tie our room together. They design everything from welcome signs, the family crests, flags, and Texas cutouts. They have a series of these metal reads that are perfect for your front door, and you're able to change them out depending on the season. Are you a sports fan? Well, there's nothing better than having a giant logo of your team on the wall of your dinner office. When it comes to signage. The possibilities are really endless. What you should really do though, is head over to Smith art and design comm to get a look at their vast portfolio. That's Smith, iron and design Comm. I'll throw a link into the show notes as well. They don't just do science either. Some of the smaller items are custom bottle openers, and key chains. Then they also have bookshelves, TV stands, nightstands and fire pits. You know it was about a year ago, Aaron built me a custom shelf. I needed something new to store some of my vinyl and everything I'd come across. Either the shells weren't big enough for LPs where it looked too bland or cheaply made or to be perfectly honest, too expensive. So I wound up talking with Adrian. And about a week later, I was able to pick up this custom shelf unit. That's just been amazing. It's incredibly sturdy, has a bit of a rustic feel. In my opinion, one of the best parts was just having so much control in the process, you can get them as tall as you want with the shelves are the perfect depth and length. Again, for me, this was for storing vinyl, so they had to be a certain height in depth. I've been thinking about getting a custom bookshelf companion piece soon as well. Now, for the most part, they primarily serve the Lubbock area and the South Plains. But for some of their smaller pieces, they're able to ship nationwide as well. Again, Smith, iron and design calm. Now back to the show. On this record, right here, there's a song title that, like just he just pops, but I think you probably already know, but it's the even the river runs out of this town. Like when I first read that was like, how did how did Springsteen not think of this? Or Tom Petty? You know what I mean? Like, that is such a, just a fucking good title. I guess like where did that song start with? Like, where did that come from?
Will Hoge 51:13
Man, that's one of my favorite ones. was one of my favorite songs on the record, but it was also one of those, you know, I bitch all the time. I don't pitch on time. But I will talk at the end about the CO writing idea in Nashville. And a lot of times it's just bullshit, you get two or three people in a room and it becomes this thing of you trying to write the least offensive song, it becomes that songwriting back committee, it's like, are you okay? Like you're not offended, you're not offended, you're not offended, it's probably fine. And you end up with a bunch of just white bread. really boring. Music. That song is the complete opposite of that I got together to write with my friend Rob Snyder and my friend Jonathan Singleton. And we had never written together the three of us. And we had not seen one another in a long time. And we literally sat down in this room upstairs on Music Row, and started talking, we probably talked for 10 to 15 minutes. And, you know, then there's always these awkward moments like, what are we writing about? Who are we writing for? What's the bla bla bla kind of just gets kicked around. And luckily, we were all friendly enough. Rob had the title, literally don't even know what this means. I just thought the word sounded cool. And then Jonathan, played this one little opening lick on guitar. And I started then throwing out like, the verses almost came out. Instantly, like we just started, like, I started almost saying them in real time. And we wrote them down. And that song was probably finished in an hour and a half, maybe two. And it was one of those it was, it was just I thought like, it was great. Everybody contributed, everybody was holding one another. It wasn't like we just threw it out and it was over. Like we'd we would challenge the lyric and try to change the perspective a little bit. And then not overthink it, not make it something that it wasn't. And you know, those are those moments that you look back and go like, what a cool moment to get to sit in this room with these guys and write this song that I really, really love. And then putting it on a record, it seems to be one, you know, I played it live. We were in Manchester in England. And it was shortly after we'd written this I was long before we'd recorded anything for this record. This was you know, last year, and here you're in a packed room, in a country very far away from where you've grown up, and there's a new song and that tends to easily be a turn off. But it was like 400 degrees in the club that night, the place didn't have air conditioning. And I've sent the band off to try to cool off for a second. And then I played something by myself. I was like chuck it I'm gonna try that song and played it. And it just it killed. And that was one of those like, oh, man, this is cool. And then when we recorded it my the recorded version, I thought was just stellar. I thought that everybody's thought we really nailed just the way the whole song feels. So that one's cool. I just feel like from creation to execution the whole way through. It kind of had everything that that we want it in it and I'm really I'm really tickled to hear you say that that's one of the ones you liked the most because I feel the same way.
Thomas Mooney 54:39
Yeah, for sure.
How,
how often does that happen where you know, there is that co right where you try and just like hang out for a little bit before even starting to
the paper.
Will Hoge 54:55
There's always a little bit of it kind of every time because there has to just be some semblance Have What have you been up to? And all of that, but you know, the times, I wish that I had more stories of when I left, it was like, holy shit, that's great. There aren't a lot of those. But, you know, I also have the one. I mean, some of the songs that have truly been, I mean, even if it breaks your heart was one of those songs that was written in that way. I mean, when paslay and I wrote that, you know, I was 20 minutes, I was still on a walker from my accent. I mean, it was just, it was a shitty, shitty day. And we sat down and wrote that song and probably about the same amount of time. I mean, you know, it was, it was quick. But it was just right. And it was one of those that you left, like, okay, we did Good work today. And, you know, so I don't know, it doesn't happen nearly as often as I'd like for it to, but when it does happen, it's pretty special.
Thomas Mooney 55:51
Yeah, yeah. That a man that's one right there is like one of those songs where I feel like every line is just perfect. Like, there's even the river You mean, even if it breaks your heart? Oh, like that? Yeah. It just feels like that song has been around forever. And also, like, the first time I hear it, it feels like the first time kind of thing, you know?
Will Hoge 56:13
Yeah, that's cool. I mean, it's it's a special song. I mean, I don't. I mean, it's truly I mean, I say it all the time, like that song changed my life in so many ways. I mean, as an artist, as a, as a writer, as a human. I mean, for my family. It's just, yeah, it's interesting. And you know, the process wasn't any different. You do it the same way that you do every other. And back to the Oasis thing. I mean, I think about that a lot. There's a great no interview where he talks about if somebody had asked him, Why do you even try to do this anymore? And, you know, in his great accent that you can't fucking understand, though, he said something along the lines of you know, he said, I may never right, Don't Look Back in Anger, again. But I might, you know, and that's, that's the thing. I think that's why you do this is because you have these moments where you have something that you write, you create out of nowhere, and it affects you, it really moves people and all of a sudden, that affects what they do, and then ultimately affects you and all these really positive ways. And you've done it once. I mean, shit, maybe you can do it again. And that's part of why you get up and do it again every day, I think.
Thomas Mooney 57:32
Yeah, yeah. The, the excitement and the, I guess, maybe like the wonder if, like, if you can, if you're gonna do be able to do it again, not even just like, even hit a, a song badge. It's the the quote unquote, life changing aspect. But like, if you're able to make a good song again, is that is there a little bit of not fear? But is there that excitement every time or you're like, Are we good? Are we going to be? Am I am I able to do this again? In general, there's
Will Hoge 58:03
always excitement. And I mean, really, it's really not to sound cheesy, but there is a moment. I have come to love the writing process, as my you know, used to be when you started out, it was just, you know, wanted to play wanted to be in a band, I wanted to play music. And so you know, I had to write because I needed songs to play. And as you grow, it kind of becomes a little different. Or can I guess it has to, but for me, it did it became I still want to play I don't want to blow people away with a live show. That's really great. But I also want to write songs that cause people when they hear them to have a read and not come and see them and be a part of it. But like listen to it and and have that reaction. I'm still excited about every time I mean, I really am like to get to sit and write and finish a song is always pretty special. I mean, I'm always excited by there's ones that you're kind of more excited by sometimes, but also, those aren't always even the ones that are right you know, there's things that you finish that you go Holy shit, this is going to be the one like this is so good. You know, then you'll play it for a play for my wife or I'll play it in front of a crowd one night and people are again whatever I'm gonna drink you know, and you know, hit really and then there's other ones that you play and you go I this is good. I'm glad we finished it. It's a cool story but you play it people are shitting their pants over and so it's there's a little bit of mystery and wonder in that too. But uh, yeah, man, I just loved the process. I mean really and truly fallen back in love with it more over the last two or three years. And getting to sit again, you know, with this record and, and write again just for the sake of writing, not trying to carve out a hit song for somebody else or anything like that. Really just focusing on trying to telegraph story is inspiring again.
Thomas Mooney 1:00:03
Yeah, the, you're on that song, maybe this is okay. I feel like you really capture you know, some vulnerability and some anxiety of being, I guess, open with yourself where you're, you're talking about, you know, is this? This is this is okay, this is, obviously it's in the title, but like, you know, I think we, I know, I, personally, I'm always kind of feeling the, a little bit of fear of like, Oh, is this gonna just crumble away? Is that what you were kind of thinking when you're running that
Will Hoge 1:00:38
is exactly what it is. I mean, I've struggled with that for years. And then vulnerability as a whole. I mean, I think I was always, I was always okay with it in, in the art part. But outside of that, I mean, that wasn't something and isn't something I come to real naturally, I tend to be way more guarded. And, you know, in relationship with my wife, and with my kids, that's stuff that I've really had to work to break down. And I'm glad to have, it's made all of my relationships better, including, you know, relationship with myself. But that's, that's not an easy place for me to get to naturally. And, you know, that's the third or fourth person that's brought the the word up about this record, and that song in particular, and that, that, I'm excited by that, because that I wanted that to come across. But you know, it's also been this fear of like, did it? I don't know. So I'm glad to hear that. Yeah, I think that there's always this anxiety, especially in this business for me, if like, the minute that things go good, it's just gonna fall apart. Or is this gonna go away Is this good thing that I've got, you know, I find myself not even being able to enjoy, the things that you've worked for that are good, because there's this fear of, well, then this is going to go bad or whatever that may be. And it's a pretty, it's a pretty sad way to live. And I did it for a long time. So um, yeah, I'd like to think that that's the song is a testament to at least cracking the curtain and thinking maybe, maybe this is all right.
Thomas Mooney 1:02:28
Yeah. Yeah, the I feel like that's the he, I think you can even relate this back to the what we were talking about, really early on with the quote, unquote, you know, the dumb Southern man kind of thing. Just being okay with just singing songs about beer and floating the river and stuff like that, which, that's all fun and stuff. But there is a I feel like there's artists right now who are talking more about their anxieties and like, they're just being unsure about themselves and confidence and whatnot. Obviously, like guys like that song specifically. But obviously, the guys like Jason is one. People like that. I think it's, it's been a little bit more BJ Barnum of American aquarium, be a little bit more open and allowing an audience to know that like a, you know, we're, we can all be fragile in our lives. And maybe like, this is what you're going through as well. Maybe, like I said, like, kind of like giving your audience a little bit more to, to bite on and chew on then. Then whatever there may be used to.
Will Hoge 1:03:42
Yeah, and I mean, you know, again, I don't like to speak for other folks. But I mean, you know, the thing I love that even the two people that you just mentioned, I mean, you know, Jason and BJ are guys that I consider friends and I really admire the way they work and how they work and the work that they've produced and put out, you know, guys that are unapologetically Southern, and also unapologetically open about what they think and feel. And, you know, there's just, I love that there's a genuine I see this, my sons are 13 and almost 10. And the idea that we can really, and I see it with Jason, I see it with BJ, they've got daughters, but you know, and they're a bit younger than my kids. But still, it's the same thing. It's like this idea that we can have male figures that that are open and that are vulnerable and that make it okay to have emotions and fears. And this idea that the sort of shedding of this toxic masculinity that we've all been brought up to believe is this thing, you know, What is it to be a tough male, it's just kind of silly at this point, really, and truly, when you look at it, like the idea that you can't ever have a fear or you can't cry, or you can't be emotional about things, it's just it's ruined a whole lot of men's lives, it's true to a whole lot of relationships with significant others with people's children. I mean, you know, it's just, I'm glad to see that going away. And I think that, like you said, I mean, if you want to throw me in that lot of folks, I'm honored to be a part of it, because I do think that that's what's going to start to change. One, I think it creates a whole lot better fucking art, and the music is going to be a whole lot better, the more people that are willing to really dig down into that part of themselves. And then ultimately, it does its little part to help the culture as a whole continue to change. I mean, you know, to raise sons and daughters that realize that they can have fears and deal with them in some sort of positive way. make people's lives a little bit better. I mean, that's a, that's not a bad thing to be a part of.
Thomas Mooney 1:06:11
Yeah, the, there is a strength in admitting that you do have fear, you know, and that, like people, you know, letting that go, just helps so much, you know, like, one of the big things I am a fan of, is, if you need help, if you need, just go into a therapist can do wonders, you know, that, like, yeah, there's a lot of things that you can do to be proactive in your life. And I think like, you know, one of the biggest, one of the biggest, I guess, help, one of the things that helps the most is his songs and his artists. And, you know, that that's some of the best therapy out there. So
Will Hoge 1:06:55
well, you know, I mean, just even this conversation, I mean, like, right now, you got to do you know, a dude from Texas, and a dude from Tennessee, talking about how it's okay to be vulnerable enough to go therapy. I mean, you know, there was a very small, but I won't say there was nobody, but my father's generation, there was nobody in that circle of people that was like, have you thought about therapy? I mean, men, you know, that's just it would have been found, there's still a stigma attached to it in a lot of ways. I mean, mental health is not taken nearly as seriously as it should be. And like you just said, I mean, the ability for us to start to society say get help, you know, talk, whether it's for mental issues, or chemical issues, or whatever it is, I just, I think that the quicker we can, the further we can get from that stigma, that that's something that's wrong, or something that's bad. Instead of just realizing it's something that is we'll all be better off or.
Thomas Mooney 1:07:56
Yeah, for sure.
Will Hoge 1:07:57
You see, with athletes, you know, I think that's another thing that's, you know, that's cool. With this whole younger generation, you talked about basketball earlier, you know, I do watch the shop on HBO.
Thomas Mooney 1:08:07
I've seen episodes, yeah.
Will Hoge 1:08:08
It's just great, man. I mean, and, you know, you look at LeBron James. And, you know, he's talking to guys and girls that are pro athletes, or actors, or actors, and it's just people that are on there kind of talking about real issues, you know, this idea that, and there's a, there was a whole episode with Kevin Love, you know, an ex teammate of lebrons, who had huge issues with anxiety. And he talked a lot about how he got through it with meditation and with therapy, and all of these things. And you know, these are the biggest toughest dudes that you're going to run into. And they're out there really being honest about how they feel and what their fears are. And I just, I think that this whole future generation of people, men and women that are able to, to really get in touch with those kinds of things. It's incredibly inspiring.
Thomas Mooney 1:08:56
Yeah, yeah. The Kevin Love the Yeah, he's talked a lot about mental health and Rosen.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:04
Yeah. Yeah, I
Thomas Mooney 1:09:05
just I think that's like a, it's obviously, your, your, if you're, if you don't think that if these people can suffer from things like that, even if they're, you know, these pro athletes that are big and tough on the court, you know, you're just you're being ignorant to the, to the situation.
Will Hoge 1:09:24
Yeah, or this idea that, you know, there's always the argument of like, well, Oh, Mr. millionaires got it so hard. And it's like, if you think that there's $1 amount that makes you not have worries anymore. I mean, that's just such a silly line of even attempting to discuss it in that way is just silly. I mean, you know, if that were the case, yeah. And this would be a lot easier to fix. Yeah,
Thomas Mooney 1:09:47
there was a, a 3430. About Ricky Williams, I guess, about five years ago, and I can't Yeah, it was like run Ricky run or something like that. But like one of the big things was with that was him smoking pot. And people would always throw up the, he's a pro athlete, he's thrown away millions of dollars retiring, he's throwing away money, because he can't pass a drug test. And I always just was like, it's a little bit more complex than that. It's not that he doesn't have the the willpower to not smoke pot, but like, if he if he could do it another way, you'd probably do it another way he would stop smoking. But for the for the sake of passing a drug test, or in the sake of making a salary and all that kind of stuff. But there's like some true mental issues that are happening right here. And that he's he's going through something and that eases his mind. And, you know, like, it's, we will have to go into like, why marijuana should be legal or anything like that. But you know, what I mean? Like, there is a an aspect of him. If it was easy. If it was a if he could do it the other way, and it was easier that way. All of us would choose that way, you know what I mean? Like, so? Yeah,
Will Hoge 1:11:08
yeah. And there's, yeah, there's nobody that has any sort of mental struggles, it's like, you know, this is just easier, I'm going to do it this way. Because I can, I mean, you know, everybody's, at some level trying to get their shit. I mean, that's what my wife, you know, my wife is a counselor for elementary school kids, and she's got 600 kids every day that she deals with, and you know, the stuff that you see. And I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, I don't know for you, I mean, I was well into my 30s, before I was able to even start to have these kinds of discussions or realize that most of this shit even existed, that you could talk about therapy or meditation. And that just wasn't shit that anybody I knew I was doing. And you know, my wife's got 600, elementary school kids of varying socio economic backgrounds. And they're doing meditation, in public school, every day to learn to deal with trauma, you know, and what level of trauma is obviously as varied as everything else in the scenario, but there's nothing that's not made better about these kids learning to start to think about their emotions and control it and start to start from a place each day of calm and peace. And I just think, how different that generation of kids is going to be when you get a guy that starts met a guy or girl that starts meditating and learning how to think of themselves differently in kindergarten, versus a guy that starts thinking of himself differently at 30 minutes, that's a massive difference for how that person is going to be able to exist with themselves and among other people, and I can't wait to to see that continue to grow.
Thomas Mooney 1:12:52
Absolutely, yeah, that's, like I said, like, there's this being proactive is, is going to help so much. Yeah, like, you're gonna see the benefits of, you know, the, the correlation between substance substance abuse, and those numbers going down and stuff like that. Like,
it's,
there's a, there's, nothing bad's gonna really come out of that, you know?
Will Hoge 1:13:16
No, it can't. I mean, that's the thing. Like, it can't, it can't, nothing bad can come from, it's not costing any more to do it. It's keeping kids you know, it just in that sense alone, just using that example of what my wife's doing, you know, they're keeping kids in class where it was these kids before that would just, they'd have a tantrum in class, and they'd suspend them. Well, what's that it's not helping anything, you know, get these kids in class and teach them how to learn, teach them how to self regulate, teach them, and their parents in the community to start to look at things and situations and people differently and it changes everything. I mean, I know it sounds like hippie dippie up with people shit, but it's, it's true. And I'm anxious to I'm excited, not anxious, but excited to continue to watch that grow.
Thomas Mooney 1:14:06
Yeah, yeah, that's very great. Yeah. Man, that's,
that's really, I don't know, that's just really cool. You know, that that's something that, you know, I'm, I'm only 32 in comparison to you. But like, that's something that like, even then, you know, like, there's, that just sounds that that would have never happened when I was growing up, or Now, obviously, you know what I mean? So it's, it's, uh, it's really, really, just great. So,
Will Hoge 1:14:34
yeah. And, yeah, so it's cool. I mean, it's, I think, contrary to what they say on the news every night, I think we're still heading in the right direction. Like it or not. Yeah, I
Thomas Mooney 1:14:44
do, too. I think like, you know, obviously, with the news thing in social media, like, I think we're, we're young, we are going in the right direction. It's just that we hear so much more about the bad stuff. Yes, like you just have more access to it. So,
Will Hoge 1:15:00
yeah, and I mean, I think there's plenty of people that are not going in the right direction. But I still think that the majority of us are and will it will continue to sort of amplify those voices and, and make make records and make art and go see shows and support the things that matter. And we'll we'll get there. Yeah,
Thomas Mooney 1:15:20
I think it's a good note to end on.
Will Hoge 1:15:22
I do. Oh, man will appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time. Yeah, for sure.
Thomas Mooney 1:15:28
Thank you for taking the time. It's been a pleasure talking to
you. Okay, folks, be sure to check out wills record tiny little movies when it's released this Friday. Check out episode sponsors Smith, iron and design and workers jalapeno jelly. Okay, I'll see y'all later this week.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai