076: Robert Ellis
On Episode 76, I’m joined by Texas singer-songwriter Robert Ellis. We discuss his latest album, Texas Piano Man, creating characters, developing narrative arcs, conceptual albums, and songwriting in general.
Interview Transcript
Note: Transcripts aren’t always accurate since they are computer automated and haven’t been edited for spelling, grammar, etc.
Thomas Mooney 0:06
Everyone, Welcome to New slang. I'm Thomas Mooney. This is episode number 76. And today I'm talking with singer songwriter Robert Ellis. He played blue light a couple months back. And before he took the stage, we sat down for this conversation. It mainly revolves around his last album, Texas Piano Man, from there kind of branches off into the various directions about conceptual art, building characters, narrative arcs, and just songwriting in general, it was really, really enjoyable. When Robert and his band took the stage that night, I'm not really sure they realize just how Twilight Zone he was going to be. For starters, it was a really great performance. Robert mentions it in the conversation later, as a reference when they were recording Texas Piano Man, but it really rings true when you're just watching them do. courses, a lot of comparisons to Leon Russell and Billy Joel and Elton John's Western record comparisons, you know, I made like the, you know, the Terry Allen comp before, but more than anything, there's a lot of similarities to Queen. There's a, you know, these really big moments, there's the dynamics and the presence, and I don't know, it's just it's it's probably the best comparison so far. So yeah, this great performance. But everything you imagined kind of going wrong, kind of went wrong. I was talking to a couple friends later about the show. And I think everything kind of stemmed from this one specific event. In a like, butterfly effect, kind of thing. There was this drunk girl that kept on interrupting Robert, in between songs. She's asking him if he would play her wedding. And I don't know how serious she was. But, you know, it's, I'm not really sure. It's also the best time to ask in the middle of a show. But I kind of feel like that kind of set off this series of unfortunate events during the show. I don't know, it's it wasn't just like a one time thing, either. It was like every couple songs. And I don't know, like Robert was really nice about it. But also it was kind of like, I don't know, do you not have like, just common concert etiquette. Anyways, the bigger problem, I guess was that like Roberts piano, basically stopped working mid set. They tried a few different things to get it going back to sound right. And it just never did. And obviously, that altered the way they were going to perform the show after that point. So basically grabbed his guitar and played a lot of these songs that were written on piano, and that he's performed on piano this entire time. He ended up having to play a bunch of long guitar about like episode, I guess, maybe like, the last third, something like that. It was still really, really great. And I don't know it was it was just one of those things where you looking back you kind of felt like the the butterfly wings was, was that lady or that girl asking about if you would play his, his or her wedding. And I felt like that just slowed down the set enough just to the point where his piano broke. I think like maybe even like, the worst part is that she left before the piano broke, too. So like she never even, like knew, in a way that she was kind of like,
Unknown Speaker 3:41
I don't know. I don't know,
Thomas Mooney 3:43
I just I'm probably rambling here, but I think that like, there's a little bit of this, like this butterfly effect thing happening there. Regardless, you know, it was a really great show. Robert and his band were stellar. And you know, even with a few wrenches thrown in the mix, and how they had to like work everything out on the fly. It was really, really awesome. If you haven't checked out Texas Piano Man yet, go ahead and do so. It's definitely like in my top three albums of the year. It may even be number one. It's just like an incredible piece of work. If you don't follow me on new slang or on Twitter yet go and do that it's at underscore newslink going and like new slang on Facebook, and then go ahead and give Instagram a follow as well and that is also at underscore new slang. If you haven't given the podcast a rating on iTunes, go to do so give it a five star rating. Subscribe, tell your friends tell your family anyone who'd like loves and appreciates music. Go and do that. So yeah, enough rambling. Here is the interview when
I heard her story One time about, I guess, like whenever the show here was announced, I heard I can't remember who told me but they're saying, Oh yeah, Robert Ellis he played at the O bar over here. Is that what it was called? Yeah, like over here. We were talking about it today and we could not Can I curse you can curse on here. I could not fucking remember for the the mic a little bit closer.
Robert Ellis 5:19
I are good. I am. All I remembered is that there was a nautical theme that we played. Okay. It's called the over. Yeah, that was, I don't know, eight years ago, maybe longer. I don't know, somewhere around there. But I was like, yeah, we fuckin we played it a place that had like, I thought it was called like ships or something. Because it had a nautical theme. Right. That was the last time we were here.
Thomas Mooney 5:42
Yeah. The the bar and they've remodeled the place. Since then, I don't even know if they're open right now. Technically, yeah. But that bar you could never like really put your beer on the bar cuz there was like she seashells and stuff sticking out barnacles and you're like, whose idea was this? But I had heard like, I guess, you guys put there and somebody was saying, Yeah, they just did like, an open request, I guess. And that people were just throwing out country covers to y'all. And you guys would talk for a second and then just start playing them.
Robert Ellis 6:19
I think I mean, if I'm having a bad show, usually, I will try everything possible to make it turn around. And that's, that's something we do a lot, which is just like, you know, just I feel like, the more you improvise, and the more you just kind of go with the flow of whatever is happening, usually the better it turns out. And, and yeah, I don't remember that particular night other than the nada. But we do that often. You know, like, if I don't know, sometimes I feel like if I'm fighting against the energy in the room, then it's just destined to fail, you know, but if you can kind of move with it, and just embrace it, and like, just, you know, whatever you had planned, fuck it, it's not gonna work. You know. So we have, sometimes we'll take requests, sometimes we'll just play random songs that we don't even really know. All of it, I feel like pushes us to like, be on our toes and actually play music, instead of just fucking pushing the button. You know, if you do this enough, it feels like you get into this groove where you just go on stage, you play the same set, you play it the last night, you say the same jokes, you you know, like you just push a button. And that's not what I want to do. So I feel like you have to make conscious decisions to like, push yourself out of that,
Thomas Mooney 7:29
you know, right. The that's one of those things where, obviously, people get used to a setlist and you run through that setlist every time basically. But it's also like the same stage banter and
Robert Ellis 7:44
kill myself, I fuckin I couldn't hear you know, like, it's, that's not why I play music, you know, right, I play music to express myself. And ideally, if you're doing that, well, you're going to be different every day, you know, you're going to be different every fucking 15 minutes, you're going to be dealing with different stuff. And I don't know, I feel like the only way to be honest, is to improvise. To me that's like at the core of music. But I there is something to be said for, you know, we're also doing entertainment. So there's like this happy medium of like, I see bands sometimes. I saw this chick a couple weeks ago, Maggie Rogers play in Austin. And I was just like, Oh my gosh, she sounded so good. And so together and so professional, and I really kind of got down on myself after the show. Because I was like, man, we have never sounded like that. But I think it's a compromise. Like, she has the set planned out. She has all of the interludes, all of the banter, all of it, like to the minute is put together. And there's something really powerful about that, especially in a big arena setting. You know, when you have that many variables, I think you kind of have to do that. But I've just had to come to terms with the fact that that's not me. You know, we'll probably just never do that. Right?
Thomas Mooney 9:00
Yeah, how much of I guess where I was going with this was obviously like some kind of Request Live kind of or, you know, just taking requests of just classic country songs or whatever. How much of that was just influenced by y'all doing like the those like whiskey wind Wednesday things where y'all would just play?
Robert Ellis 9:23
Yeah, that was definitely like a crucible for learning how to entertain people. And also we have a huge vocabulary of songs because of that, you know, a lot of them are somewhere deep in there and it'll take a minute to remember them. But yeah, we're doing Honky Tonk gigs for years. You know, really to pay the bills. We're working like five nights a week. And there's all these little dance halls you know, all over Texas. You can play these fucking dance halls and play country music. And I don't know it's it's a different gig than what we're doing now. In a lot of ways, but I feel like doing that. Early really informed what we're doing now from an entertainment standpoint. It really just made us tight as a band and it made me. I don't know, pretty. I feel like I definitely am way more confident after doing those gigs with knowing that I can entertain people, if I just right stop being at my own ass, you know. I mean, that's really what it is, is like, I don't know, if you haven't ever really gigged. I feel like there's sometimes there's a pretension about if somebody in the front row is like played. But the worst example is if somebody is like play Freebird, you know, a lot of musicians would get kind of pissed, it'd be like, I'm here playing my songs, you know, or even, you know, less, less, maybe malicious than that would be like somebody being like, play a Zac Brown song. You know, they don't fucking know who you are. Right? And they're not there. They're just there to have a good time and their frame of reference, maybe Zac Brown to them is the coolest thing on the planet. And I think there's something to that, to being able to recognize that they're in a different place than you. And even if you think that's the lamest fucking thing you've ever heard, they don't. And they don't mean it in any mean way. Like,
Thomas Mooney 11:14
yeah, one of the I always end up referencing Chuck Klosterman. But he's got this essay about. I guess, like he went on tour with this, like his cover band. In the hole. It was like for like a week or something like that. But it was like about how people would rather pay 45 bucks to go see a kiss cover band, then $5 to go see somebody they had never seen before. And it all has to do with just familiarity. You know what I mean? And I think you get a whole lot of that when people go out to shows that are not necessarily like a concert hall, you know, if you're just going to a bar venue. And yeah, you're you, I guess maybe more used to thinking that the band on stage should play something that you should know.
Robert Ellis 12:07
Yeah. I mean, a lot of it. Music is recreational, I think for everybody. Some of us are fortunate enough to get to do it more frequently, you know, to go to shows and to be around music more frequently. But for a lot of people, you got to get a fucking sitter, you know, it's a Friday night you want to go out. And the whole point is you want to have fun. And so if you go to some singer songwriter show, and he's playing his songs, you know, maybe you it's more difficult to connect with that. I think expectation is a lot of it. I'm sure there'll be some people here tonight, there always are at every show, who are maybe not super familiar with our material. They might have seen a poster or something. And they, they like, oh, music, we might like this. And I think that's part of our job though, is to entertain them, as well as the people who live with the records and love the stuff you're doing. You know, I don't know. It's, it's, it's a daily struggle. I get just as mad as the next person at the drunk heckling Mom, you know, in the audience, like, she can be pretty rough. And yeah, not to gender stereotype here, her male counterpart is probably worse, right? Like, but just that person who comes to the show and is like, you know, you don't fucking matter to me. You're on the stage, but I don't care. I'm here to have a good time. And I'm the center of my universe. And so you need to play something. I know.
Thomas Mooney 13:30
Right? My, my ticket into this place is my entry into Yeah, like, I want to get what I pay for it. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's weird. Yeah. I guess like switching over to like, no, this new record. I think like one of the my favorite aspects of it is just the, the the vibrant album art. Like out in West Texas. Obviously, there's no start colors, with like, the white suit and everything. And,
Robert Ellis 14:01
well, that's where you're from, you probably are a little bias in that landscape. But yeah, yeah, we shot it out in Marfa. It's like, I don't know, the whole point was to try and craft something that was very Texas, and also felt kind of new and unique. And, I don't know, like, I tend to have these overarching, like conceptual things with every record, right. And for this one, you know, calling it Texas Piano Man, and shooting the cover where we did and the videos and having the songs be what they are. I kind of just wanted all of it to feel familiar in the sense that if somebody from Japan saw it, they would go, yeah, that's Texas. That fits in with my preconceived notions of what Texas AR but I also wanted it to be a little challenging for maybe people that live here that, you know, like me probably struggle with some of the stereotypes about what it means to be Texan, you know, right. Like, try to push that a little bit to be like, this is familiar, but it's a little uncomfortable to, you know, rather than a pearl snap shirt. It's a white tuxedo. It's like, it's kind of like a surrealist interpretation of Texas identity.
Thomas Mooney 15:19
Yeah, um, I, I love that there's this. I feel like you mentioned, you try to make some a concept album for each album. Yeah. In a way. Do you think that? I guess maybe like setting some parameters of what our album is going to be actually makes it a little bit more. Like you're able to think more outside the box. Yeah, you set a box that like we're gonna, we're gonna try and stay. I know, it sounds it's, it sounds like the opposite. But like, do you think sometimes when you set what the limits are? Yes, you're it's a little bit more challenging to figure out what we're going for?
Robert Ellis 16:04
Yeah, it's I think that's not unique to music, that's all of life limitations are so crucial, you know, to have. It's an idiom, you know, is what it's called to be working within an idiom. And to have sort of defined rules and parameters of what that is. I mean, you could get kind of crazy with this conversation. But for me, as a musician has been doing this a long time. I hear people talk about, you know, what they're doing with music, in this way that I feel like is fairly arrogant. I feel like the idea that let me put it this way. Anything that we do in music and pop music, in quotations is not new. It is within an idiom, you know, like, whether you're writing country music, or rock and roll, or jazz or any of it, it exists within an idiom that was already there. And you might be adding a little personal flavor to it. But you're not doing anything new. No one is doing anything new. Not for a long time. You know, I really don't believe that. And, and so I feel like I turned a corner where it's like, sort of embracing that, and saying, Okay, well, we can all agree we're making country music and quotations in a pop format. You know, we're gonna have verses and choruses and bridges. And we're gonna have lyrics that maybe tell a story, you know, that's part of that idiom to storytelling. And when you set those, those boundaries and limitation, and then you have like, aesthetic limitations to have like, what do I want this to feel like and look like? I don't know, I feel like it pushes you to be more creative within those boundaries. I don't know a really good example is in recording, if you're in the studio, and you have 150 instruments in that studio, it becomes really difficult to figure out which one to pick up. But if you have four, right, you know, that's the way a lot of our favorite records were made all of the r&b and country and blues, and rock and roll that we love. Oftentimes, it was a guy with his guitar that he saved up a bunch of money to buy, you know, at Sears. And that's what he was able to use. And so with, I don't know, I feel like we have too many options. Yeah. And our current.
Thomas Mooney 18:27
It's the Netflix era base. Exactly. Yeah, the Spotify having access to everything,
Robert Ellis 18:32
it makes it really difficult to know what to do which way to go. And so yeah, I like to put limitations on myself. And yeah, create a framework to work within. Because otherwise, you just you have too many choices. It's impossible to decide. I think. I think when you're younger, I don't know, if you don't see all of the options. Or maybe there's like a romantic. Just, you know, you're kind of naive. I feel like when I was younger, I would pick up the guitar and I would just write a song. And I'd be like, that's it. That's what I want to say. And it would just happened so fast. You know, but as you get older, it becomes increasingly difficult to know what you want to say, and how you want to say it, and the options are overwhelming. You know,
Thomas Mooney 19:20
one of the things I listened to that Joe pug the other day, and one of the things that you said on there that I was like you I guess you kind of both talked a little bit about it. That I guess like you had said that you like working like five minute increments. That's a little zek. Is that something you're
Robert Ellis 19:42
Yeah, I can't remember what the study was. I read something about Well, a lot of people do it for jazz transcription, I realized but there's also like outside of music. There just is this thing where your brain doesn't have the attention span to really focus for for more than five minutes at a time, and even if you feel like you're, it'll blow your mind, if you do the thing and you set the timer, you set it for five minutes, you work for five minutes. And then when it dings, you do something else for five minutes, and you go through three hours back and forth, back and forth like that, I just find that I absorb so much more, and you give your subconscious a chance to do some of the work. I mean, part of it is that Malcolm Gladwell, like blink idea, which is that your brain is super powerful. And your subconscious is super powerful. Like when you're walking down the street, you're doing a million things you're breathing, you're taking one step in front of the other, you're taking in all the information of all the people in the cars, and you're doing it all without thinking. So it's just another way to try and harness that like subconscious power, which I feel is a little elusive.
Thomas Mooney 20:52
Yeah. You know, whenever I heard you say that, I thought, Man, that's such a short amount of time. Yeah, but then at the same time, it's the same kind of thing is like, I don't think we, as humans, were kind of bad at judging time anyways, like, if I just asked you to hear, give me what you think is a minute count, you're gonna, like, be off? Yeah, totally. And so like, at the same time, five minutes, can be for fucking ever, it can.
Robert Ellis 21:23
And it's, if you're working on a solo, for instance, if you're transcribing some guitar solo you really like and you're learning to play five minutes, is, you know, just a part of a passage. And that's kind of the point it is a small amount of time, small enough that you just focus on, you know, maybe in a jazz solo, you're focusing on like, five or six notes in some, you know, arrangement. And I feel like, what it does is it makes you learn it, and really learn it, rather than just repeating it. You know, if you focus on five or six notes at a time, you can understand what their relationship is to the chord, and to that moment of the song. And if you just learn the whole solo, and you can play it, you aren't really learning anything, you're just repeating it, you know, but if you can understand the concepts that are working, then you can take a piece of that solo, and you can put it in another song, and you can play it anytime you're confronted with this chord progression, you know, we're getting a little like inside music, you know, and I feel like some people are like, I don't fucking care about that we're talking about but I
Thomas Mooney 22:33
do love. I guess we're one of the things that that I just really loved about that conversation you guys were having was, especially in songwriting, it felt like, it feels like a lot of times when you talk to songwriters, they are talking just about writing songs, and they don't ever really think about other writing exercises, or, and you guys kind of talked a little bit more about the exercise of putting pen to paper or whatever. And, I guess the working of how do you can tell stories? Yeah. That you don't necessarily have to use the lens of a song.
Robert Ellis 23:11
Yeah, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's endlessly frustrating if you try to write a song, I mean, I, I'm just so frustrated by it constantly. And at the same time, what we're talking about is just a little trick to make it easier. I mean, sometimes if you're working on a problem, and you step away from it, the solution becomes clear immediately when you come back to it. But if you just keep at it, it gets she'll never find it. You'll never know what the answer is. I don't know how often in songwriting, I find myself doing. I think the thing I hate most in my own writing is when I overwrite something, or I'm trying to say, let's, let's just take, for example, like, I'm trying to say, I don't know how I feel. And I might say that in 10 different ways with a metaphor, and all these different analogies and this complicated language, and maybe I'm fucking referencing, like tropes, like the sun, or whatever, you know, whatever. And really, what I'm trying to say is just I don't know how I feel like that is the straightest line between viewpoints. But for some reason, when you're in that writing moment, you don't you don't know how to say it. And you don't realize that the simplest way to say it is just the best, it's the most effective. But when you step away from it, you come back you go, that doesn't sound that bad. I wrote that down. That's the first thing I wrote down. And for some reason, I think it needs to be more complicated, and I don't like it. But when you come back to it, you can almost look at it as if you didn't write it. You can like see it as if somebody else wrote it. And anytime I do that, like, if I'm writing with a friend who's a really good singer, and I write down a line that I think is crap, but then they sing it I'm like, that line is great because They sound good, right? Yeah, makes you actually hear it, rather than hearing your own hangups,
Thomas Mooney 25:07
right? That is interesting to think about, like, just or maybe thinking like, I'm gonna write this for Adele, because she's gonna be able to sing it.
Robert Ellis 25:17
I do that all the time. I do think about artists. It's often it's foolishly because they're never going to cut the weird song that I end up writing. But I do think about like, there was a song, couple skate on the self titled record. And when I started writing that song, I was 100% thinking about Leon bridges should cut this song, like it was when that first record of his came out. And I was just like, this would be a good song for him. I want it to be like, I don't know, I just sort of tried to think about what his voice would be when I was writing it. And like I said, He's never gonna fucking cut that song. It's like, totally a weird rock song about holding hands with someone at the skating rink. You know what I mean? Like, it's just not in any real world is he gonna cut that song? But it really helped me finish writing it to think about that.
Thomas Mooney 26:07
Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting to think about. Now, back on this last record, obviously, like the, the Texas Piano Man as the I guess, like the character, yeah. You're talking about kind of, like, challenging the the Texas tropes, but also like kind of embracing the, just the, the stereotypes of a Texan, right? I think a lot of ways,
Robert Ellis 26:36
reclaiming is the word claiming, okay, reclaiming is the word I'd like to use, just because I feel like what I want to do is like, have the, the bigger ideas represented, like the idea that Texans are individual and unique, and loud, and charismatic, like, I want those bigger ideas to be there. But I don't want all of the smaller specific ideas that I feel like have overtaken you know, the conversation like, I don't think that to be big and charismatic. It needs to be in a certain direction. You know what I mean? Right? I don't think you need to be. I don't know, I don't I don't want to get too into it. But I definitely think there's like, just take it this way. Like for years and years, Texas was a working class, state of Democrats, you know, and regardless of what you think now, that is what Texas was not that long ago, for years and years. That's what all of our grandfather's right, you know what I mean? And you talk about identity politics in Texas now. It's like, we've completely forgotten that. And not to say that we should be democrat or we should be Republican. But I do think it is beneficial to keep in mind that whatever the current identity of Texas is, it's this fluid thing that is always moving and changing. And especially as a songwriter, if you get hooked into trying to fit in with whatever is happening right now, you're missing. You're not riding the wave, you know, you're like, you're missing the bigger idea, which is that, I mean, look, what's our fucking biggest, our biggest Texas hero is probably Willie Nelson. And if you look at Willie Nelson, on paper, he defies every single idea that you would say, represents a Texan. Yeah, he's our biggest icon. Right? You know, it's like, I don't know, that was kind of what was in my head through this whole thing is like, I want it to feel like Texas, but I don't want it to look the same way you think it should? You know?
Thomas Mooney 28:51
Right? Yeah. You know, you're the whole democrat thing. I mean, and Richards is not long ago. And if people if people think it was, she's in King of the Hill,
Robert Ellis 29:03
yeah. I mean, it was like, yeah, and like, you look, everyone, things change, and people change, and I totally understand it. But I just feel that, especially when I talk to members of my family and stuff, I feel like there's there's just a forgetting. There's something that happened where it's like, I don't know, they just they don't remember, it wasn't that long ago that things were different and that you didn't have to I don't know how to say this. I feel like there's a pressure being from a really small town in Texas to think a certain way and act a certain way. And, and I don't feel like it is I don't feel like it's real. I feel like that's imposed. And I feel like people have fucking hijacked. what it is to be Texan right now and they feel like they have some ownership over it. And they have the right to say to anybody, what it is to be Texan and if You disagree with them? They'll be the first to be like, oh, city boy, or you don't know this, you know, you know what I mean? And I'm just like, Fuck that. That is not. That's not the way things are, you know, like, it's up to every one of us to define what being Texan is. Yeah, we all grew up here. We all live here.
Thomas Mooney 30:18
Yeah, like the, I think like, the like, the original idea of being a Texan was being an independent thinker, or an independent thinker, being, you know,
Robert Ellis 30:29
a psychopath. I think that's what a lot of it was, was like, pretty wild. Yeah, individual people who just did not go with the norm of the rest of the country. And I don't know, at times, that means aligning with democratic politics. At times, that means aligning with Republican conservative politics, I just think that it's really important to keep in mind that we're individuals, and we need to think for ourselves, and we shouldn't just fucking take whatever is fed to us at our high school or whatever, you know,
Unknown Speaker 31:03
yeah.
Thomas Mooney 31:05
What was like the, I guess, like that first song, the first batch of songs that really kind of started, I guess, morphing into the, the idea of this record, and that kind of like, maybe set the tone.
Robert Ellis 31:19
passive aggressive was an early one. And that one had a lot of humor to it, and was like, that one, kind of set the tone in some ways for the just How fun is this record going to be? You know, like, How sad is it going to be how much of it is like tongue in cheek, and then the song fucking crazy, came kind of early. And that was one that I felt like really defined everything I was talking about. I feel like it was, you know, it's just a really simple love song in some ways. But it has the F word in it over and over and over. And I feel like that is that's kind of a part of what I'm trying to say is that I could have written that song, without that word in it, but it wouldn't have had the same sort of confidence, right? And the same, just like in your face kind of feeling. And that, I don't know, it really just summed it up. To me, it was like, it's a simple love song, but it has so much personality in it. And it is divisive. There's a lot of places we can't play it. And there are a lot of people that are not going to like it. And I think that's okay. You know, I think that there are a lot of people who it's going to be their song, you know, a lot of people who are going to get married and walk down the aisle to it, because they're just like, this is us. You know, this is like, I don't know.
Thomas Mooney 32:45
Yeah, there's a lot of that humor in there. On the record in general, you know, the passive aggressive is like very. I absolutely love it, because it's just you. It's Everyone knows that one person. Yeah, who is super passive aggressive. But then like, I don't know, usually, I guess, like, what I'm saying to you is, the reason why you're able to see those passive aggressive qualities in someone is because you do them too. Yeah. And you know, the signs, because you're you
Robert Ellis 33:22
didn't know that song isn't passive aggressive over and over with the delivery. That was one thing when I was writing that I was like, Oh, this is so much fun. I can like sing a line, and then like, wait to sing the next part and do all of these little, like, subtle jokes to me that, you know, it's I don't know, a lot of my stuff is on the face one way, and I feel like if you listen a little deeper, I really tried to not have any, like, I'm really not into black and white, in terms of like, and right and wrong in terms of ethics. And, and I don't like songs, where it's somebody saying somebody else did something wrong, they did something wrong. And that's why my life is hard. I don't think that's interesting. And just as a writer, I just don't want to go there. So a lot of my songs are about conflict. And a lot of them the narrator is just as much at fault as anybody else. And yeah, I don't know, I just, I don't think that kind of black and white stuff is one fair or real. And too, it's not interesting. It just doesn't interest me that somebody would just, you know, and by the same token, I don't think that like self defeating songs about what a shitty person you are and how I cheated on you. And like I just that doesn't interest me. I feel like we're complex. And a lot of us are living in like a gray area where we're constantly trying to figure out, did we do it the right way? How are we going to do it next time. And that's more interesting to me is like that conflict of like, all of us. Trying to be a better person and struggling. Right You know? Yeah.
Thomas Mooney 35:06
I mean, that's why, like in television or in film we love like the anti hero. Yeah, the Yeah, the the person who has the problems but you're trying to root for and does some fucked up shit along the way. Yeah, you know because I think they're everyone kind of loves the redemption arc. Yeah it is interesting though you mentioned you know that a lot of times the narrator's at fault or just as much fault as the person they're going after. I think, for some reason in music as a listener, we always think that the, the narrator's right, and I guess like in the last couple years, I've realized a lot of times that like for example, just one of my favorite bands is Turnpike troubadours, and they've got the song, you know, good lord Laurie, and everyone kind of like, bashes Laurie. And it's like, now the narrator was being a dickhole. Yeah. And once you get to realize like that, like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, he creates these, you may like the the narrator in that song or whatever, but like, you know, he was it fall in this in these the moment that he that they're singing about?
Robert Ellis 36:24
Yeah, just as you relate to him doesn't make it right.
Unknown Speaker 36:26
Yeah, yeah. That's a trick. Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Ellis 36:31
I love them. Yeah.
Thomas Mooney 36:33
And I think there's a there's a lot to that, where we, you know, we project a whole lot of stuff on lead singers. Yeah. And it's kind of the same thing with like, a lot of the American aquarium. Yeah, stuff where, you know, because we like PJ, because PJ is the one with the microphone. You know, and we've talked a little bit about this before with, I've talked with him about it. But how, yeah, you know, we're like, looking back, you know, I was the bad guy in the songs. And, yeah, I don't know, I, I find that a little bit more interesting. as well.
Robert Ellis 37:12
Yeah. And you don't, I mean, like, if you like BJ. Which, by the way, I'd love him to, and I love that band. I don't think that it's predicated on you believing every word out of his mouth is true, or 100%, representative of who he is. I mean, I can tell, you know, people listening that listen to American aquarium, just because you've listened to their records, you don't know who these people are, you know. And by that same token, you know, you could know somebody for a long time and still not fucking know who they are, you know, like, and I think that songs are just this one little window that are built on extremes, the whole point I am, is that the last three minutes, and that there are about one thing, and that is just not the way life works. Life is about a lot of different complicated stuff. And songs are like a little microscope into one little part of it. So to think that, just because somebody's saying a song about how they felt in one moment, you know, you're not getting a complete picture of who that person is. And I think, you know, one, that's why songs are special. But also, that's why they're misleading. And I don't know, I do think there's a conflict right now in music, where we feel like the people singing the songs have to be the people in the songs, right? You know, and much greater minds than us have thought about this subject at length, you know, especially in terms of fiction writing, the idea of a character, having their own identity, you know, is a character the writer, if it's in a book, would you say that JRR Tolkien is? You know what I mean, rise Frodo, would you? I don't think he would. But in the song, it's really easy to say that the guy singing is the guy in the song. Yeah. And there's just not a lot of times a distinction made in songs, where you say, Hey, everybody, not just want to clear this up. This isn't me. This is a character. His name is john smith. You know what I mean? Right? We don't have the time to do that. And also, it wouldn't be effective, and you wouldn't relate to it if we did. So I think it would behoove everyone to just relate to the song relate to the characters the same way you relate to the characters in a book, but don't hold them to some standard, you know, and to be completely Frank, a lot of artists are horrible. You know, a lot of people that make this their life writing music and, and writing fiction and they're horrible, depraved people. You don't want to relate.
Thomas Mooney 39:53
Yeah, that's the thing too. I always think about where we romanticize everybody. Yeah, and It's a, you know, you ask everyone in the bar tonight who your favorite Texas songwriter is you're gonna get a whole bunch of Townes Van Zandt? Yeah. And yeah, he's a great he was a great songwriter. But it's like also, like pick up a book every once in a while and read about some of the fucked up shit.
Robert Ellis 40:18
I do not want to be him. Exactly. I don't want to fucking live like him. Yeah, I mean, look at our Kelly wrote some of the most beautiful love songs on the planet, you know, and a lot of like, really religious songs. Yeah. And he is a fucking bad dude. Yeah, bad stuff. He's not someone we should look up to, you know what I mean? But there's this, this difficulty in separating the art from the artist. talents is one that I, I love him so much. I love his songs. And then yeah, just like, especially as a songwriter feel like a lot of people. They use him as a songwriting role model. And I feel like that's created sort of a culture of feeling like, you have to have a fucked up life in order to write good songs. And maybe that's true, I don't think it is. But if it is, I don't want to do that. I still want to have a family. And I still want to be a good man. And I want to like raise my child well, and not be fucked up on drugs all the time. And if that means I can't write good songs, then so be it. Yeah. You know,
Thomas Mooney 41:26
I wonder, like, where that really started out with. And I, I guess it kind of started out with like, the Beat Generation. Yeah, like the the Kerouac's of, you know, being because I guess I've read a few things where, you know, obviously, everyone loves on the road, when you're, you know, a teenager, but read it now as a 30 year old man, and you go, Yeah, I don't know about this. But there's a lot of stories about how, you know, he was, it was more of a sad thing at near the end of his, you know, after after his quote, unquote, glory days, where he would show up, and he's just, you know, an alcoholic or something. And that, I don't know why we have a romanticism about, about that kind of stuff with art, and about having to have like, a bad life.
Robert Ellis 42:20
Well, there are archetypes, and there are tropes, you know. And I think that in some ways, it makes it easier what we were talking about earlier, we all like, familiarity, you know, and the idea that an artist fits into a certain construct that you have, it's, it's compelling. And, and it's the same in, you know, I mean, think about like, I don't know, like Stephen Hawking, for instance. You know, we love the idea that someone who has hardship is a genius. It's like, it's an archetype. You know, the cripple genius is like, the thing that is like, a real archetype. And I think there's some thing that we think we're, oh, well, he must, because of his condition, he must have had to work so much harder, and just be so much smarter. And I just think that it's something that we do we put people in little boxes and, and, yeah, I don't think it's healthy. I think that we should all constantly be checking ourselves and saying, you know, why do I like this? What do I like about it? You know?
Thomas Mooney 43:28
Yeah, yeah,
Robert Ellis 43:31
maybe not. Who fucking knows. I mean, I'm, I'm saying all this. And I'm as guilty as anybody of doing this stuff. You know, I'm just as guilty as anybody of hearing a song and putting together all the pieces of what they look like and where they're from, and what their accent sounds like and what the words are, and then coming up with an idea in my mind of what they are, you know, that's why I like Billy Joel. I feel like he is like this wild, crazy character who just is like, says whatever he wants, and your mom also likes him, you know, and that's the same kind of thing. So I don't know. Yeah.
Thomas Mooney 44:12
Okay, like sonically this record, you know, a lot of people have been comparing it to, like Billy Joe Leon, Leon Russell. Yeah, I kind of feel like there's a lot of that elton john, the 70s, elton john, feelings to it. Were you, I guess, were these kind of records in mind whenever you were going and playing the piano and really kind of building the record in the studio?
Robert Ellis 44:37
Definitely. I mean, we reference a lot of different things when we're in the studio for mix purposes, for you know, how are the instruments going to fit together? I think a real strong Sonic identity on this record is mid range is super pushed, you know, in the guitar and in the vocal, and it was a choice that Josh made because a lot of the references I sent him I mean, if you listen to Queen, the mid range on that stuff is insane sounding. And if you were just to give that to somebody, let's say you were producing a record for some local singer songwriter, and you mixed their record the way that a queen record sounds, they would send it back, they would send it back to you. And they would be like, this sounds crazy. It doesn't sound like music on the radio. This is not how it should sound. We've just gotten used to things being a lot more balanced, you know, and Queen is bold sounding. And so that was a reference we use a lot is like, how do we make this sound really kind of aggressive in ways that it doesn't usually, and the mids are pushed, they're just super upfront. And the vocal, we also made some choices on the vocals to like, all of my records so far have been, I feel like the vocal had a very beautiful big treatment. And on this one, we tried to make it big and aggressive, but not necessarily beautiful. It's got some like rough edges to it. And some of the qualities of my voice, I have a very mid range II voice. They are embraced rather than tamps down, you know, I think most engineers, when they hear my voice, they go, Oh, he's got kind of sharp mid range, we should get a microphone that will help that, you know, help make that a little more palatable. But we've made the opposite choices.
Thomas Mooney 46:30
You know, we're talking a little bit about the, the, the humor on this record, but there's some like super serious Yeah, moments on this record to the song father, when I first heard it. My first thing was, I just had to play it again. And I think it's like one of the best songs I've heard in a long time. Thank you. But like, Where did that song begin? What's
Robert Ellis 46:56
Well, it started out. Somebody very close to me, didn't know their father growing up and told me that they wrote him a letter, they got his address from somebody and wrote him a letter, you know, don't know him at all, and wrote him this letter. And I just, when I was writing, I started just thinking about, well, what would that letter say? And of course, you know, I, I put some of what would my letter say, bro, but it's definitely an amalgam of of a couple different people that I was thinking about. It's not completely my story, you know, but I think, I don't know, I wanted it to kind of be a little universal. Because I think whether your father was present for your life or not, I do think there's a feeling when you get older, especially when you have a kid, where you really start asking yourself, like, Do I know these people? Like, what do I What do I really know about them? And I don't know, for me having a kid really put that a finer point to that, like, you go through these milestones you see your kid take their first steps. And it just occurs to you that your parents did the same thing with you. And they felt the same way you do, or they felt, you know, some different but very extreme way. And until you go through it just never occurs to you. Because why, you know, why would it but I don't know, I feel like that song. Definitely. Having a kid had a lot to do with it. My relationship with my father had a lot to do with it. And also thinking about this, this person in their letter, you know,
Thomas Mooney 48:31
yeah, it felt just like it felt like it was even though you just said, you know, it's kind of based on a story. It didn't feel like a story. It felt like a really real moment.
Robert Ellis 48:41
Well, a lot of those little vignettes in there are from real things in my life. You know, like, one thing I try to do writers that are really like like john prine. You know, rather than talking about huge ideas, big ideas, he tends to focus on really small details. So there's my favorite lines in that whole song are the lines about the I just saw a picture, you know, there's this picture, and I'm looking at it. I'm like, well, who's that guy in the pickup truck? You know, and like, we were fishing. We were on the beach. Like, I was so little, I don't remember it. And the idea of asking somebody about, like, what was that day? You know, like, I don't know, to me, and that is a real, you know, I feel like, I can't pull out that picture and show you the picture I was talking about, but I feel like I've seen it. You know, I feel like it's something that I've felt when I was looking at a picture and gone like God, what was this? I must have been like five? Yeah. Yeah.
Thomas Mooney 49:39
It's a it's also I don't know, I think with especially with the picture imagery. We're from like, a time where not everyone had a camera. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think photos meant a little bit more
Robert Ellis 49:58
in definitely cooler. Yeah, they looked a lot. I think they looked better. I mean, if you go back through your family photos, you'll be like, this is so awesome looking, because they just snapped one photo. You know, nobody was rolling around with a ton of film, you know, making sure the pose was perfect. And they made the right face and right, like selfie with the perfect light and making sure their hair was good. I mean, like, you just picked up a camera and snap. It's a weird, weird little piece of time. And I feel like more true. Because of that. It's like, we didn't have time to make sure that everything looked the way we wanted it to look, you know, we just snapped it. And that's just somebody who's making a weird face. I feel like there's more information in that.
Thomas Mooney 50:44
Yeah. Yeah. We could go down that rabbit hole. Oh, yeah. Social media and Instagram and filters and all that kind of stuff. I think I'm gonna save it. Yeah, I mean, I've had a great time talking with you. Yeah. Likewise. Go ahead and end it right here. If you're if you're good. Pardon? I said, we'll go in and end it right here for Yeah,
Robert Ellis 51:11
sure. I just I do want to just say, you know, I hope I haven't offended anybody. I constantly am afraid. Because with these things, I just like to just talk and
Unknown Speaker 51:21
yeah,
Robert Ellis 51:23
just have a conversation. And I just I do hope that. Yeah, like everything I say, should be taken with a grain of salt. I think.
Thomas Mooney 51:33
Okay, what I think though, is this time right here is like the disclaimer time. Yeah. Like, yeah, it doesn't matter what you say. Yeah. Now, it feels like we always have to put a little asterisk in this means you had to, like disclaim everything. And then I don't know, I wish we didn't have to do that.
Robert Ellis 51:54
I do too. I really do. But I feel like people are so are so angry and heightened and right. You know, and again, I had an argument on like Instagram the other day, I feel like people are so quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And to think, Oh, well, I don't agree with this guy about this. So I no longer like his music. And it's fine if you don't like my music, but I feel like if you go through life that way, you're going to miss out on a lot of beauty. Yeah. I don't know.
Thomas Mooney 52:26
No, nevermind. No, no, I'm gonna keep that in there. Thank you so much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai